Meghan Smallwood  0:00  
Welcome. This is the postsecondary transition conversation. We discuss the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I am one of the hosts. My name is Meghan Smallwood, and I am a public school transition coordinator. As always, I have a co-host, and who would that be?

Patrick Cadigan  0:19  
I'm Patrick Cadigan, and I am also a public school transition coordinator. Welcome in, and we are back. It's been a little bit of a time for us to sit down and get together, hasn't it been?

Meghan Smallwood  0:32  
It's been, it's that time of the year where it's just everything is jumping from one thing to the next, so I'm glad we could find a time to catch up.

Patrick Cadigan  0:42  
Yes, I agree. All right, so when we were talking offline, one of the things that Meghan had brought up was that she wanted to talk about what is referred to where we live as endorsements. Now, a little bit of a background here. Now, longtime listeners will know this, and I apologize for reiterating this all the time. However, in the state of Maryland, there are two categories of students. Essentially, there is students who will graduate with a diploma, and there are students who will graduate with what is referred to in this state as a certificate of completion. So now we are entering into a what would you say, like a, like a new phase.

Meghan Smallwood  1:26  
Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan  1:27  
This new phase is referred to as endorsements. So, Meghan, you have been doing the legwork on this for a while...

Meghan Smallwood  1:38  
Yeah, I've been part of the work group for the secondary transition steering committee with the state working on this, and just to piggyback on what you were saying in regards to our state having a certificate track. It's interesting if you were to look at every state and how they handle it. I even had no idea that it was so different across the country. I knew that New York, everyone got a diploma, because my sister had a diploma. Now, as I've talked about it before, my sister has a disability, but my mom was insistent that she had the diploma, and I came to realize that New York had different diploma tracks, which is what many states, such as California, Pennsylvania, do, and just put it out there to something that could happen down the road in Maryland, you never know, but before we jump to that, these endorsements were rolled out, and it's more of like an equity piece for those students on the certificate track to show and justify that they have been doing work while in the school system, it may not be the credit requirement for a diploma, but they are emphasizing that they've made achievements and they want to formally recognize them as an endorsement.

Patrick Cadigan  2:52  
If you were to articulate a definition, a simple definition that families can understand, how would you define endorsements?

Meghan Smallwood  3:01  
So an endorsement is going to recognize those additional skills that the students attained over their time in the school system and demonstrates their transition readiness for post-secondary programs, businesses, or community organizations, whatever their path may be when they leave us. So it's supposed to really show those unique strengths that they've had over the time, give some clear pathways and goals, and just show those outside of the world, our school world, that they have accomplished, and they're a good prospect for employment.

Patrick Cadigan  3:36  
For the parents who were just hearing about this for the first time. What's the point of this, what is a goal of these endorsements for our students?

Meghan Smallwood  3:44  
So, really, we just want to give them some formal recognition. I think there's such stereotype around the certificate, and we've talked about this before, about making that switch from a diploma to certificate, and how scary it can be when your child's no longer on that pathway earning credits for a diploma, what's going to happen to them? Do they fall off the deep end? Do they get anything? This is a way to show, yeah, they have been working towards something. It may not be the academic pathway, but they have been working towards vocational or community engagement, and we want to show that they have skills and that they are ready for the next level, even if it's different from the typical level that you know their their general education peers have been working on.

Patrick Cadigan  4:32  
Yeah, I do have to say that in my years as an educator that conversation around going from from a student who is on the diploma track, and now entering into that discussion of, okay, well, maybe they may not necessarily earn a diploma, but they're going to have this certificate of completion, that that can be a tough, tough conversation.

Meghan Smallwood  4:57  
Yeah, and it's a scary one, and it's one that. It, I think, parents, and I understand why, may push it back year after year, but from the school end, as it's being pushed back, we're seeing the student have less and less time to work on that pathway, where we can teach them those skills, like these endorsements are showing, that they can put to use in employment, or even post-secondary education at their level, but it is a tough, tough thing, and I think that is why potentially over the years they could explore everyone receiving a diploma on a different type of diploma pathway, but it's that word of diploma that I think really just is a comfort to some people, so we'll see what happens.

Patrick Cadigan  5:43  
It's almost like a, like a trigger word, if you will.

Meghan Smallwood  5:45  
It is, yeah, very much so. Because I get it, a lot of times you go to do a job application, it says, 'Do you have a diploma check, yes or no? Well, you did complete your schooling, you might have gotten some certification, but if you got a certificate, you have to check no, and the road stops there for many employers who don't understand what that means.

Patrick Cadigan  6:03  
And again, I know that this is something that you have been working on for a long time. For parents new to this idea, what is the age of the students who will begin working on these competencies through this endorsement?

Meghan Smallwood  6:16  
So it will be for all students who are transition age students in Maryland, which for us is 14 and older. 14 is when the transition pages start on the IEP. And for many of you, you might be thinking, well, I haven't heard of this. What are they new? What, my child's 14? Yes, they did just have an initial launch from MSD about this, starting in the 2425 school year, but at that point it was just focusing on those students who are exiting in 2025 and then again this year the focus has really been around those students who are exiting in 2026 although we're slowly trying to think about those that are coming up the pike, and now with the new school year approaching we're really going to be looking at all those students, age 14 and up, and as a county, and I think as a state, we've really been trying to methodically plan and develop resources to help align the endorsements more so with what they're already doing, so it's not extra work, but it's emphasizing the importance of the skills that we're supposed to be working on it will become more of a popular name and thing that families hear about, and it should be included in the IEP meeting. Your transition specialist will be talking to you more about it, so it is something that will be on your radar.

Patrick Cadigan  7:38  
For now, where are families going to find the information in an IEP about the endorsement?

Meghan Smallwood  7:47  
So it will vary, I'm sure, from county to county, I guess, depending on the IEP system that they use. For us, it is listed around on our IEP where the projected category of exit is, where it states that you are receiving a certificate of program completion, and when you're exiting right now, it's just a drop down statement that states which endorsement the student is working on, and we'll get into that in a few, but it's just stating that they are on this track and that they are working on these endorsements and the competencies that fall under them, and they're based, that's based on the student strengths and post-secondary goals.

Patrick Cadigan  8:28  
And then, do you foresee this broadening out to more pieces of the IEP as time goes on?

Meghan Smallwood  8:34  
We've had conversations about how it should be intertwined into the present level, because if it's going to align with their postsecondary plans, and the transition present levels are addressing what those plans are. It's a natural alignment between their skills and what they're working towards. So, we want to see that in there, and it really reinforces the relevance and the authenticity of that transition plan.

Patrick Cadigan  9:00  
Okay, so then let's get into the nitty gritty of the actual endorsements themselves, as I understand it, because our state had.. oh, actually, no, this is a good question. Was it the state that sent out the information, or was it the school system that put the information out that you shared?

Meghan Smallwood  9:17  
So it was coming from the state, and the idea is to have consistency across the school systems, because we are aware that students may transfer or move, and we want everything to be the same, but at our school system I've created materials and resources and visuals that kind of outline it as easy as possible for families...

Patrick Cadigan  9:41  
Ok, I...

Meghan Smallwood  9:41  
...but it's the same information from the state.

Patrick Cadigan  9:43  
Got it, all right. And just to throw out there for everyone, I too was using these resources to understand this. So, when we're talking about endorsements, there are categories - there are three categories, correct?

Meghan Smallwood  9:56  
Right; three different endorsements that you can earn.

Patrick Cadigan  9:58  
All right. And then so, the first category is Community and Citizenship...citizen, say that three times in a row really fast...

Meghan Smallwood  10:06  
I know, right.

Patrick Cadigan  10:07  
All right, so the first category, Community and Citizenship endorsement. What, what will a student focus on with that?

Meghan Smallwood  10:15  
So that's really for students who are interested and planning on being active in their community, focusing on their community contributions, and that they might volunteer, that they just want to be engaged in their surroundings. Now, just to throw out there, too, there's not really levels to the different endorsements, however, we kind of see the natural like tiering of them. If you start with the community and citizenship, I see a lot of students that are a part of our work program that go out in a group starting with this endorsement and working on a lot of those skills or competencies before they might move on to another one.

Patrick Cadigan  10:56  
All right, and then, so the second category is Career and Work Readiness. Did you want to talk a little bit about that?

Meghan Smallwood  11:04  
Right, so obviously this one is when you're entering the workforce, being prepared for that, so it's going to focus still on that community piece, but also a lot of those skills that you might need if you're in a vocational training program, for example, work study or one of our more independent work program, so that you show that readiness for employment in different careers.

Patrick Cadigan  11:25  
All right, and then the third and final category is what's referred to Post-secondary Education endorsement. What is that?

Meghan Smallwood  11:33  
Yeah, so this is for those students who are interested in still going on to college at their level, or some kind of technical program, or another type of professional training, a certification, so if they're really interested in that academic pathways, this might be the endorsement to work on with them.

Patrick Cadigan  11:52  
Now, what does it mean for a student to earn an endorsement?

Meghan Smallwood  11:59  
So, it means that they have achieved a certain number of competencies, and those are kind of, you think of like how your IEP has goals and objectives. The objectives are like the smaller specific skill for a goal. The competencies are kind of like those objectives that break down what that endorsement means. Each endorsement has a great number of competencies, for example, the community and citizenship endorsement has 63 competencies. In order to show that a student has earned or mastered that endorsement, there's a requirement they have to achieve at least 50% of those competencies. Now it can be any of those competencies, but they have to have that 50% to show that they've earned it, and you can earn more than one endorsement. So, if in theory we have these students starting to work on these, you know, at age 14, and they're chipping away at them every year, every student's different. So, you might have a student who is working on this one endorsement until they're 21 and they may not even reach the 50% level, and that's okay. They've been working towards it, and they still have that community exposure. But you might have another student who starts at age 14, and within the first year or two, they've flown through the competencies, and they've mastered that community and citizenship endorsement. Well, then naturally you're going to start working on another endorsement. A student could lead the school system with either 0, 1, 2, or 3 endorsements. It's all dependent on their skills and their ability. 

Meghan Smallwood  13:34  
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Patrick Cadigan  14:06  
All right, now, as I was going through the resource that you had come up with, one of the things that I had noticed is, is that there is a score criteria. Now, what does that look like in the real world? What is what do these scores mean?

Meghan Smallwood  14:21  
So, in order to achieve a competency, the student has to show that they obviously are doing it independently. That's one way they can do it independently with 90% or greater accuracy in an authentic opportunity, but if a student is still able to achieve that competency with 75% or higher accuracy, and they have adult support that is still considered mastering that competency. So it's not that the student has to achieve this independently. A student can receive support, and it could be a verbal prompt, could be a gesture, it could just be, say someone saying. Hey, did you check this, but that still counts as mastery towards it.

Patrick Cadigan  15:06  
And just to be clear, and you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but I just, I think it's worth going back to. Just because an endorsement exists, it doesn't mean that the student has to earn them, correct?

Meghan Smallwood  15:18  
Right. We have students who have the most severe disabilities in our county, and we are aware that this may not be feasible for them, but I think the idea is that the expectation is there to expose them to some of these competencies. We have travel training competencies that may talk about, you know, going out in the community and just being there. I mean, that, that would count towards it. We have shopping within a set budget, we have following a schedule. I mean, if you think about it, and I know we do such a great job of modifying and individualizing things, the exposure to this, whether they actually achieve it or not, is just an opportunity for them to gain something, and I think that's the one thing about the endorsements that is going to be a huge benefit, because oftentimes I find with our students who are in the life skills program, because there's no set curriculum, a lot of times for some of the classes you're not sure where to go when a student achieves one objective. What's the next step? Where do we go from here? This kind of gives you that natural progression. Okay, well, they're able to do this skill. Well, let's build on it. Let's try this one next. So I like that piece of it, and I like that the expectation should be there for all students, regardless of their disability.

Patrick Cadigan  16:48  
And then who has input into the endorsement attainment? In other words, who will be taking the data to figure out if the student has earned the endorsement? And then part two of that question, as I have it in my head is what are the what can be the sources of that data.

Meghan Smallwood  17:04  
Yeah, so it includes a lot of stakeholders, obviously the school staff that work closely with them, but it can be related service providers. I mean, we always talk about collaborating with them. We've had many conversations with related service providers about their input as we look at the secondary transition world, they're huge people that can help with that. It can be employers that the student is working for, making them aware of some of these skills that they're working on and getting their input. It could be parents. When we talk about coming to the IEP team meeting, they're a huge part of that, and hearing what they're sharing from the home side about what the student is working on can really help us to know where they are, where they need to go. So, it's a number of people working together on this. It's not just the transition specialist, it's not just the case manager. And in terms of what counts as attainment and what kind of data needs to be shown. Each endorsement does have a requirement that they have at least three different observations, so there's an observation form from the state, but it's just a simple, like, summary of what you witnessed when the student was completing this competency. Other than that, it is open to whatever pieces of data really that show that the student has done this, it can be written in the IEP. Going back to how we were talking about present levels, if it's documented in there that the student achieved something that is a competency that would count as data, it could be classroom assessments or different work evaluation from from their work program, it can be from their portfolio, it can even be just the input or observation or the feedback from the stakeholder. So, there's no one set way. Again, there is some observation records that need to be completed, but out of all those endorsements, that's minimal of what it needs to be, it can be so much more.

Patrick Cadigan  19:03  
Let's say, moving forward, that we have a student, a specific student who achieves an endorsement; where will the families find that information?

Meghan Smallwood  19:15  
So that's been something we've been working on as a state as well. Overall, the general consensus from all the counties was that it would be on the transcript when the student exits the school system. So, as I mentioned before, if a student achieves the endorsement prior to 21, I think it just needs to be kept record on that endorsement tracking sheet that will follow the student from whatever work program or school he's in to the next people that are, you know, holding it, but you let the parent know that he's working on another endorsement, and that the first one was achieved. When they leave a 21 that is when you'll see the official record on their transcript of what endorsements, if any, they have achieved. Right, so it'll go with them in that documentation when they leave us.

Patrick Cadigan  20:04  
All right. So then, more broadly speaking, why? Why endorsements? I know you've probably touched on it more than a few times through the conversation, but I do feel like it bears going back to and thinking about it, and repeating. Why is the state doing this?

Meghan Smallwood  20:25  
Again, it's an equitable piece, you know. We have our students on the diploma who receive recognition on their transcripts for some of the great things they're doing to prepare for the post-secondary world. So, this is giving our students on the certificate track the same benefit to show what they've been working towards, so it's the recognition, the formal recognition to boost their confidence and self-esteem as they prepare for adulthood. It's showing clear pathways of what their goals may be for the future, depending on what endorsement track they might have earned. If they are ready for the post-secondary education world, it's noting that they've achieved that endorsement, so they want to continue the skill set for future education and academic challenges. It's giving employment prospects to show that they have the workforce readiness skills, and again, that's going to continue to take a lot of professional learning on our part and MSDE's part to show the business side what this means, and you know what the students have and have achieved, and then the community engagement it shows any kind of provider to that they are going to after they leave us that they've been involved and contributed to the community, and that is something that they would like to continue working on.

Patrick Cadigan  21:34  
I'll be interested to see as time goes on how this evolves, and then what it looks like in the future.

Meghan Smallwood  21:44  
Me too; but there are resources too. If you go to the MSDE website, and you can literally just type in Google MSDE Endorsements, and you'll find the under secondary transition the rubric. So, if anyone wants some light reading, the rubric of all the different competencies for each endorsement are listed there, and it's overwhelming, and it's a lot, but the information is there if anyone wants to look.

Patrick Cadigan  22:11  
They are on my computer. You will also find a link to those in the show notes, of course.

Meghan Smallwood  22:17  
It's some nice reading when you've got nothing else going on, maybe by the pool, this summer,

Patrick Cadigan  22:23  
Moving forward for me, as I was going through the resource, I'm looking at it, and I'm like, okay, How can I explain this practically? Because that, and sometimes I feel like we even have to just explain it slash describe it practically to our colleagues, like, yeah, within the system.

Meghan Smallwood  22:40  
I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes I get a phone call from one of our colleagues asking a specific question, and I get tripped up. I'm like, hold on, I need to check my sheet, because you got to have three of this and two of that, and how many of this? Like, there's a lot of numbers floating around, so yeah, I rely on that as well, so...

Patrick Cadigan  22:56  
Well, good deal. Well, I think that this is going to be super helpful. If you need to reach out to us, you can always go to our podcast website, www.P2Transition.com. We have been getting messages lately, and boy, do we really appreciate that. Some of it is Fan Mail, some of it is genuine questions, and we can now respond back, and we've been...

Meghan Smallwood  23:16  
Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan  23:16  
 ...doing that.

Meghan Smallwood  23:17  
Yeah, it's great.

Patrick Cadigan  23:17  
But I do feel like that this is going to be a pretty hot topic coming up over the next couple of years.

Meghan Smallwood  23:23  
I think. So, I think as it gains more momentum and publicity, I think it will become an area that we might need to touch on again.

Patrick Cadigan  23:30  
Yes, I agree. And speaking of momentum, we do have some more content coming up in the future. We have some upcoming interviews that we're both looking forward to, and some additional information that we want to push out as we are starting to kind of move into that, those summer months, and on the back end, one of the things that Meghan and I tend to do is try to take a little bit of a break during the summer. I have already started reaching out to fellow podcasters, because we like to do our pod shares. I've heard back from a few of them, so we're going to have some nice information to push out, even over the summer, and to give everybody a little bit of a chance to relax, but also hear something different.

Meghan Smallwood  24:12  
Sounds like a plan.

Patrick Cadigan  24:13  
Sounds like a plan. Well, thank you everybody for joining us, and we look forward to talking again in the future.

Meghan Smallwood  24:18  
Thanks, everyone.

Meghan Smallwood  24:27  
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