Meghan Smallwood: 0:00

Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition conversation. We talk about the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I am one of the hosts. My name is Meghan Smallwood, and I am a public school transition coordinator. As always, I have a co-host, and who would that be?

Patrick Cadigan: 0:19

My name is Patrick Cadigan. I am a public school transition coordinator. We are back, and we are going to have a really interesting conversation, and I'm going to let Meghan set this one up. Do you want to tell everyone what we're talking about?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:34

Sure. So we have a guest with us today. We have Travis Anderson, who is a former electrician, but also an adjunct professor at Frederick Community College in the trades, and I know we've had conversations about working with students with disabilities, so he was just coming to give us his perspective on jobs in the fields and just working with the individuals with disabilities in general. Thanks for joining us.

Travis Anderson: 1:03

Patrick Meghan, thank you for having me. I just want to piggyback off of that, and I am still an electrician. I just don't practice anymore. I do teach commercial electric for one term and the specialized systems I'm very interested in training, especially across all ability levels, tangible skill sets, to students every term I do have one or two students that would fall on a spectrum or would display some kind of cognitive disability, and so this is very important to me to try to reach out and actually have those students learn at full, as full as a student that would not have a cognitive disability. So that was, being with you guys tonight is very important and very special.

Meghan Smallwood: 1:53

And I love I love that because I like, you know, having those high expectations for students, whether they have a diploma or a certificate, is just so important, and I think it gets lost after they leave us a lot of times. And I know we've had conversations within the school system about offering opportunities for our students, especially on the certificate track, to leave the school system with different, you know, opportunities or certifications, to prepare them for possible jobs so people can see that they are marketable on the employer side.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:21

With an electricians background that I feel like is one of the big three, right? You have HVAC, you have plumbing, and then you have electrician. So before we really dive in, Travis, how long were you out in the field? How long did were you working as as an electrician.

Travis Anderson: 2:37

Over 20 years, Patrick, I started in 1999 and I transitioned into engineering just about five years ago.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:45

And then what made you what made you want to be a teacher?

Travis Anderson: 2:49

Well, I've always had apprentices working under me, and I thought to myself, this would be a great thing to be able to give back to the electrical community, or to back to the trades in a large scale form, and a job opportunity at Prince George's Community College opened up, and that's where I got my leg in. And then that ultimately led into Frederick Community College, where I live.

Patrick Cadigan: 3:14

As a as a teacher, as a college professor, when you are in a classroom and you are doing your teaching thing. How is it that you are aware of the fact that you were working with students with disabilities?

Travis Anderson: 3:31

Sure, well before class starts, Patrick, I'm usually emailed by one the student people. I don't really know the technical name for them, from the college, from the college, they'll let me know that there's somebody there with the essentially college level IEP, and that would, you know, grant them extra time on tests or extra time on projects. So I'm not going in completely blind. I have an idea of the level of ability that will be my classroom. And then also, Patrick, as teachers, you may also do this on day one. I take the first couple days and I develop a relationship with each individual student, and I kind of figure out, you know, are they hands on or the auditory? Are they getting to be able to read? Are they kinesthetic? And from that, I'm able to actually develop an individual plan for each student.

Meghan Smallwood: 4:23

So the Disability Support Services actually send it to you. That's pretty cool. Yes, absolutely. Because I know, you know, we're always telling our students to advocate, so it's nice that they kind of get, you know, someone to help them. But do you find that the students are asking you for those kinds of accommodations too, or are they kind of waiting for you to approach them.

Travis Anderson: 4:44

So to avoid any kind of embarrassment, or embarrassment is the wrong word, but to avoid singling them out and making them feel odd, I don't really do that. What I do is I bring everybody into a large group. Up and we discuss, basically the syllabus. And because what this is is more of a ability to gain a tangible skill set, I kind of figure out relatively quickly who my students are, and I'll give them individualized attention. And you know, for lack of better words, I take those kids more under my wing and give them individualized attention and how to develop the skill set that they will eventually need to land a job.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:27

And then in the actual class, how much of it is academic versus hands on?

Travis Anderson: 5:32

I would say 50/50, and but with that being said, Patrick, I I'm rather an easy grader, and so I do have a large sliding scale, and the reason I do that is if there's one student who is just amazing at book work, but I can't really teach them how to put wire together, I not going to fail him any more than I'm going to fail somebody who's amazing at picking up the skill but doesn't have the academic prowess to actually be studious enough to learn code or learn theory behind what's going on,

Meghan Smallwood: 6:05

So you're working to their strengths?

Travis Anderson: 6:07

Yes, absolutely.

Patrick Cadigan: 6:09

What are the major hurdles that you have? I don't even know how to say this, like teaching a trade. Like you're in a college environment. You're in a college classroom. There is an academic piece, there is a hands on piece. What are your What are you seeing as the barriers to entry for students?

Travis Anderson: 6:28

Sure, that's a great question. And honestly, Patrick, it really does vary student to student. But if I was going to give you a consenser, I would say getting the students to realize that the trades, there's no longer a stigma with the trades. The trades are no longer for your high school dropped out. The trades are no longer for people that couldn't figure out what they wanted to do for a living, and that the licensing, regulatory aspect of the trades is as in depth as if you or I would go and get a bachelor's degree to become a teacher or a master's degree to become a teacher, where their version of the bachelor's degree would be their journeyman card that takes roughly 8000 hours to obtain. And those that are going to obtain a master's license is going to take around 12,000 hours to obtain. And to put that in the academic perspective, that is roughly the same amount of hours you're going to spend on a bachelor's and a master's degree, but to actually get those students understand, you know, this isn't where you go to be. You know, this is no longer. You know, you failed High School, and so you're gonna go come become a plumber or a carpenter or an H back mechanic or electrician. We don't want that in the trades anymore. That's not a place. We're not the place for the class clown. We're the place for somebody who's taken academic seriously.

Meghan Smallwood: 7:44

That's something too from our side. You know, we talk to so many students in the schools, and we're trying to tell them all the opportunities that are out there, that if college isn't the best pathway for them or option for them, there are many other pathways that are great opportunities. And again, the expectations are just as high, but in a different way. It might work better for them.

Travis Anderson: 8:08

Yes, and also, if I can also say that, you know, the average salary of an electrician with five years in the field, once they become journeyman status, it's 80,000 a year plumbers and HVAC mechanics. It's 80 to 90,000 a year after, you know, four or five, six years. So we also try to drive that home. And the only way you're going to make making the salaries is if you are and then apex in your career, if you paid attention. And not only did he learn the theory behind what makes these machines and these things work, but you also have the tangible skill set and ability to diagnose, repair and install these things. And so when we do get, excuse me, when I do get kids, I call them kids, but when I do get the adult learners my class, I make that known right away. You know this. This isn't 1990 where you know the job is jokes and you know the it's we're playing around all day. No, like people take this very seriously. And also the future of the trades, we're looking to train people to be able to completely maintain data centers. We're looking to train people to completely maintain hospitals, schools, businesses, and it ranges from residential to commercial to industrial. And that's the other thing we really try to drive home. Is the trades, or what I refer to as the MEP, the mechanical, electrical and plumbing aspects of it. There's different levels, and each level requires a different level of education, and once we get the students to understand that they're way more susceptible to paying attention and having listening to what I have to say.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:53

it's interesting to hear you say it, because I have been hearing that for years, and the reason that I say that is, is because, and Meghan knows a little bit of my background. Before I was a teacher, I worked in the construction site safety field. And the owner of the company that I worked for, who's also my best friend, he was a huge proponent. His argument was always, you do not necessarily have to go to college; college is not for everybody. And if you can direct these students into the trades, then that they are marketable, they are valuable. They will always have work. Like you were saying about the about the annual salary, like he was like, he'll he would throw it up there and say, like, you do this thing, and this person over here does this thing, but roughly, they're making the same amount of money as they're starting out, and then over the over the life of the work that they are doing, in the in the value and the experiences that they're getting, that is going to increase. And so again, it's just, it's so funny to hear you say this. It was a big bone of contention with him for a long time, because he was again, he was like, You do not have to go to college, and you can still get a really good job.

Travis Anderson: 11:06

May I share an anecdotal story that I also share with my students. I went into the trades after high school in 1999 and my best friend went to University of Maryland, College Park. My best friend took classes in computer science, where I was learning my trade craft, electrical. When he graduated, he could find a job. Back then I'm aging myself now was wachovian Bank, which I believe is now Wells Fargo, and he was able to get a job making around 1150, an hour with a computer science degree from College Park. At that point, I had my journeyman's card, and I was making 17 an hour with zero college debt.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:48

It's funny, one of the things that Meghan and I often discuss is soft skills. And I recently had a conversation with a gentleman. He was the husband of someone who I used to work with, and as it turns out, he was a road construction foreman, and so we had this long conversation. One of the interesting things that he said is that he zeroed in on the soft skills. He was like, if we could just communicate with some of these kids that they just need to show up and be on time call, if you're going to be late, or if you're going to be out, and, you know, just again, this, this long list of soft skills. And he was like, You're gonna have a job, like we're looking for people. And I just thought that that like we weren't talking about, like, the skill involved with what they were doing, or the project management side of it. No, we were just talking about showing up or making a phone call, so...

Meghan Smallwood: 12:50

That's funny because I feel like, you know, we talk about our students who are on the diploma track, those are things we're working on with them. When they are involved in a work study position in the school system, or if they're in, like, a site based experience. It's just those basic things that we're trying to get them to understand. And they might not be thrilled about the job they're at because they want to be in their dream job at 17, but we're trying to explain to them you need to learn these things before you go anywhere for a job. And then, you know, back to our students with on the certificate track. You know, we work hard for these students to show to the community that they are marketable, and these are students who are the most aware of what we're teaching them, and they take it to heart that they're going to show up, they're going to be on time, they're going to report, you know, if they're not going to be there. So those are things that you know we want them to leave our schools with. And then if they do have an interest in the trade, or if they're able to work in that business, there's another opportunity that doors open for them. And I know you've talked about positions for students who might have a certificate that they could do.

Travis Anderson: 13:54

Yes, and and I'm really glad you're bringing that up, Meghan, because the adult learners that I have that are either take my class for an elective credit or it's part of a four Class series and earning a certificate and electrical or mechanic, or mechanic or HVAC, the students that I really be are my favorite are the ones that come in there, And they're the ones that would have left Meghan's purview or your purview, Patrick, where I focus on these guys and gals, sometimes, because I know if I can teach them one tangible skill, and I can get them to master that one skill, they can spend the next 20 years, simply doing that one skill repetitively and earn a decent wage, earn a decent living, if nothing else, have a purpose that they're proud of. And so in the electrical world, it also Paul mean mechanical, but I'll speak from the electrical world. I. We have something called boxing out or roughing in, and that's literally a day one apprentice's job, or a helper's job would be pick a box off of the back of the work fan, and walk around a house or a building or whatever it may be, and you lay out material, you put the wire in that corner, you put the boxes, or the junction boxes where they may be. You lay the pipe down where the journeyman tells you put the pipe you basically yet, lay up the entire job. And the journeyman comes and they put the material together and perform the project. If you can teach just one of these kids, it doesn't matter where their IQ structure is, if you can teach somebody to do something repetitively. This is a job for life. And the reason I am so passionate about this guys is, you know, we all go to target, we all go to Walmart, we all go to the big box stores. And you always see somebody pushing carts. You always see somebody as a greeter. You always see somebody, you know, putting clothes away. And I think to myself, That's amazing, but there's going to be people that that they're built for that. But there's going to be a large swath of people that, if you can give them something other than a commercial job or retail retail job, like they're going to be cut out for it. And there's no reason in the world why a company would not give somebody the opportunity to literally be the apprentice for their entire career.

Meghan Smallwood: 16:30

Well and I think, you know, when we talk to students, you know, and we do our transition interview, we have students that are say, "I want to work on cars, I want to work in construction. I want to build a house." And maybe it's that we don't have enough of that knowledge piece of what jobs there are. I mean, I hear of electrician, and I think of them coming to fix, you know, my lights aren't working right, but I don't know the different, like tasks like you were talking about, that exist where I could say, Okay, well, then, you know, maybe you could do this for them. So I think it's just a matter when I hear that from a student of exploring those fields to find out, but also keeping them motivated to know there is a place for them in those areas, and also the families. Because I think families might come to the table to hear that and they're like, that's never going to happen. We need to look at Walmart. You know nothing against Walmart, but if your student has that interest, why not try it and explore it?

Travis Anderson: 17:26

Sure, and this is how I feel about it, if you guys collectively can find a job for one of your students at Chick-fil-A, and Chick-fil-A or Wendy's, or whoever, fill in the blank, teaches this student one skill set that the student repetitively does over and over again. Then there's no reason why I, as an electrician cannot do the same, or a plumber, or an HVAC mechanic or and, or just an automobile mechanic cannot teach a kid, uh, how to do an oil change. And so I say oil change because that's like a very basic thing to do with a car. And this person learned to do an oil change and be supervised 10 or 20 times. Now they can do oil changes the rest of their lives and build a tangible skill set off of that. And the same as an electrician, my entire first year as a helper, all I did was lay out material and lay out boxes to be, and then about six months in, I was taught how to wire an outlet.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:27

But to your point, I think, you know, yeah, they can learn that task, and they can build off that. It might not be in six months like you did, maybe it's a couple years down the road, but you're showing that they can start somewhere. And over time, they are going, they are motivated and eager to learn.

Travis Anderson: 18:42

So yes, and that's what I refer to as forward mobility. As long as you're continuing to taking steps in the right steps, and you're progressing, it doesn't matter how slow it is. And honestly, a lot of the people that I work with, as far as getting people jobs through my class, I have a success rate of about 30% of the kids that come to my class that don't have a job, they leave with a job within 16 weeks. Now, a lot of that is me reaching out to people that I know. A lot of that is my union relationships, and not only with the 26 and 24 which are the electrical unions of Baltimore, DC, but also the mechanics union of 602 which is a steam fitters and pipe fitters. Basically, they do HVAC and plumbing. These companies, I don't want to get too much in the weeds with the tax breaks and stuff like that, but these companies, by employing people with disabilities, not only are they given that person an opportunity, they're also receiving tax breaks, and they're also receiving benefits from the government to be able to do a bigger government work, and that's something that's hidden in plain sight.

Patrick Cadigan: 19:54

I'm going to say that that's going to be a good spot to end the conversation. Travis, thank you for coming out and talking with us...

Meghan Smallwood: 20:02

...the conversation...

Travis Anderson: 20:03

Sure.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:03

...because I'm like, uhhhhh...

Patrick Cadigan: 20:05

"I don't know what to talk about."

Meghan Smallwood: 20:09

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 20:09

Yeah, we really appreciate you coming out and taking the time to talk with us. So thank you for that.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:16

Yes, definitely.

Patrick Cadigan: 20:25

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