Patrick Cadigan: 0:00

Hey everybody. So in teacher-world, we're right at the end of a quarter, which means that a lot of our time is being spent working with our special educators to do progress notes. To that end, both Meghan and I have been consumed with that, so there won't be a new discussion this week. However, for the last few weeks, we have been working on cleaning up and building towards re releasing our very first parent interview that we did back in 2022, long time. Listeners will remember that Nick and Remy Nirschl, whose son rich, was about to transition out of the school system, and we had an opportunity to sit down and talk with them about where that experience was up to that point. Today, the nurses have moved away from our area, and they are doing great. The reason that we wanted to work on this interview again is because, remember, this was one of our very first attempts at talking with families. And over the last couple of years, we've learned quite a bit about the process of putting out discussions, right, the process of building a podcast. And when we went back and we were listening to that discussion. It was a really good discussion, but we always felt like one of the problems was it was a series of cuts that took away the family's cadence. The information was still there, but we never felt like it was really in their voice. We went back to the original, unedited discussion, taking all of the stuff that we've learned over the last couple of years and re edited so that it sounds more, in essence, like a genuine discussion versus a series of informational vignettes that were cut together. So we feel that this is a much easier listen in terms of conversational delivery, and we hope you think so too. So this week, we have our renewed discussion with the nursers, and we'll see you back here in two weeks time with a brand new conversation.

Meghan Smallwood: 2:37

All right. Well, we are fortunate enough to have a family with us who is willing to discuss their path with transition. So if you don't mind going ahead and introducing yourself Mr. And Mrs. Nirschl and just telling us a little bit of background information about your son.

Nick Nirschl: 2:54

I am Nick Nirschl.

Remi Nirschl: 2:56

And I'm Remy Nirschl, and we have a son who is 20 years old. His name is Rich, and he goes to a public day school.

Nick Nirschl: 3:08

So when he was about a year old, he seemed to be doing pretty well, maturing normally. And about that time, Remy seemed to start noticing some abnormalities, and the doctor tended to downplay it and didn't really...

Remi Nirschl: 3:30

He told me, "Oh, we'll just wait and see."

Nick Nirschl: 3:34

So he was a little overhear all, and he started to have some odd behaviors and things. And the doctor like, well, it's just normal.

Remi Nirschl: 3:45

He's a boy, but he was showing symptoms because I was a social worker working in a day program rehabilitation for traumatic brain injury, and there was a section in the building for early development children, and I used to see them walk around and they would have behaviors like flapping hands, non verbal. And he was showing those same symptoms. And I was getting really nervous. And so I went to the doctor and say, Look, this is what he's exhibiting. And he just said, Well, you know, you work at a rehab, you're just projecting, just wait and see. And I say, What do you mean by what age are you going to review this? And he said, Oh, around five years old is when we will figure this out. And so we had to just go, we had an HMO, and this was in the state of California, by the way, and we had to just pay out of pocket, go in debt and just get a diagnosis. And in the state of California, once you got to get a diagnosis, I we contacted Regional Center. I knew to do that because I was, I was a social worker, so, you know, we we waited for just a few months compared to. Year, which you have to wait a long time. And then we got services. We got speech. They were going to hook us up to an early childhood development. But at that time, we had to Nick got a job in Maryland, and so we had to pick up everything and just start fresh again at the age of still at the age of two, it was the same year. And then my rude awakening was that, "oh my gosh, Maryland is different from California." We had to wait for service. Then he, he went to public school for, you know, all this time we he's got great teachers throughout I think we were blessed to have had some great teachers along the way. Of course, there was tension back and forth, but to I think it's at the collaboration of that brought some really good goals and services for him, and now we're at this point.

Meghan Smallwood: 6:03

And how long was he at the separate day school? Did he go right into it when he started his schooling?

Nick Nirschl: 6:09

No, he started off in a separate school that was sort of an inclusion program. That was, how did that work? It was...

Remi Nirschl: 6:18

It was Howard County Public School, but they have the combination is, I think it was called MINC EL, MINC P, which is included the sort of like the ABA program.

Nick Nirschl: 6:29

And they would try to include him in various classes throughout the day.

Remi Nirschl: 6:34

They are also allowed to pay for like, 15 hours of ABA intensive therapy that was preschool, once he went into kindergarten. Up to now present, it was alt-special ed without in home service.

Meghan Smallwood: 6:49

Right, so that separate day program.

Patrick Cadigan: 6:53

What age did they finally identify your son with autism; like when did you get the official diagnosis?

Nick Nirschl: 7:01

That was 18 months. So we had gone to a separate person from UCLA who did the diagnosis. We were trying to, trying to get some, you know, go through the regular doctor, and we did finally get him to be seen by a sort of autism specialist who said, yeah, he probably has autism, but we'll wait until he's five. That was the one. That's when we said we need to get him diagnosed.

Remi Nirschl: 7:26

And pay out of pocket. You know, first they ruled out hearing if he is deaf because he wasn't responding to his name. So they ruled out, ruled that out. Once the psychologist did a thorough evaluation, she Yeah, diagnosed with autism the age of two.

Nick Nirschl: 7:44

Once we started getting those services, they were like, Oh, it's so important that they get early intensive therapy. And had we just listened to the doctor, you know, we wouldn't have gotten.

Remi Nirschl: 7:56

Just a step back. This was back in...

Nick Nirschl: 7:59

It was, I guess, was, 2002 / 2003.

Meghan Smallwood: 8:02

So, basically a long 20 years ago.

Remi Nirschl: 8:04

The autism rates were like 1 out of 150 and, now it's one out of 44 I think...

Meghan Smallwood: 8:11

Yeah.

Remi Nirschl: 8:12

So people are now more aware. Pediatricians are more you know, are looking into it now, and if parents have concerns, they will listen, basically...

Nick Nirschl: 8:24

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we were just at the cusp of when it was people were starting to realize it was a real issue, and there was starting to be more awareness of it, but we hadn't quite gotten to the point where we are now.

Patrick Cadigan: 8:38

So as we fast forward now to where your son is at right now. What does a school day look like for him?

Remi Nirschl: 8:47

Well, so we he has to wake up real early in the

morning, at 6: 8:50

30 to get him fed and ready to go with the bus

picks him up at 7: 8:55

15 which is really early for him. So that's been a challenge, and from the school, once he gets there, they have the assembly. They do, from what I understand, some vocational and life skills. They go out to the community, maybe once, or is it once or twice a week?

Meghan Smallwood: 9:14

Hoping to get back to twice.

Remi Nirschl: 9:16

Yeah. So from there, he comes home around 2:45 and then I get him ready, because he's not done yet. Let him just do what he needs to do, to rest. And by three o'clock, his therapist comes. We have an ABA therapist. Yes, it funded through our health insurance. And from three to six, he's there with him doing life skills, or whatever program that is being implemented that's prepared by the BCBA, and then his days done after that. So that's his routine, Monday through Friday.

Meghan Smallwood: 9:55

So very functional, vocational life skills driven day.

Nick Nirschl: 10:00

And he's in a classroom with four other children with autism. So it's a very small class size with I don't know what the ratio is, but I think it's close to one to one.

Meghan Smallwood: 10:12

Thinking back when that diagnosis was received and you were planning the next steps, did it ever cross your mind about long term planning. You know, what's his life going to look like after school?

Remi Nirschl: 10:26

Yes.

Nick Nirschl: 10:27

Well, yeah, so initially there's the shock, right? And you start to wonder if you're start to ask those questions. I think within a year or two of that kind of got in my mind. Okay, we'll deal with that when we get to it. Let's just see, see what we can get him to. I still had hope that at some point he'd be able to be independent. It's at some point in his life. And so my anxiety over that really pushed me and maybe a little bit too hard on the teachers to get the goals, you know, right, and to make sure that they're meeting the goals, because I was had that end in mind, like, you know, I wanted him to be at the point where he is self, functioning, hopefully, diploma and But then along the way, as we were, you know, working towards those goals, I was noticing maybe that what I wanted for him at the end, starts changing, like it No, it depends upon how he's progressing. And I had to step back and say, "Okay, I just gotta just take a deep breath and just, let's go do Nick's thing." It's just get him to the point of what he could do now, I think that intensity of where I wanted him to be, it was so intense that it was, you know, I just had to let it go and just focus on the present moment; where is he now? Where he can move... I'm sorry. Yeah, it's funny, because we're, we're kind of the opposite in how we approach life. I mean, I think that happens a lot with married couples, as you attract too. I've always been kind of, don't I don't spend time regretting and I kind of deal with now, but I don't plan for the future. Remy in school, she would be if an assignment was given to her that was due six weeks from now. She needed to do it tonight and and I'd wait until, like, you know, a couple weeks before it's due, and then my daughter would wait until the night before it's due, but that's how she kind of her approach to how to deal with Richie has always been like, we need to plan this. We need to get it going.

Remi Nirschl: 13:10

And I think he kind of taught me along the way to just relax and follow his lead. And there are moments when he was just, he's just so happy, you know? It's just happy and smiling. Um, and so...

Meghan Smallwood: 13:32

That's, that's what you want for your child. Do you want to see that.

Remi Nirschl: 13:36

That's where people, that's the goal. I want people's goal is to just be happy, right? He's already there. He's already there. And I just had to umm...

Meghan Smallwood: 13:50

And I see from my because I I know you, and I see from my side that you recognize that you know what makes him happy, and as you're planning for the future. That's what you're you're striving for. And you know, I think you're on a great path, but kind of going back to that you were, kind of leading me to that next question about planning for that post secondary world, and how you like to be prepared around what age did you start doing a little of that research and starting to recognize, like, Okay, I really need to see what, what I need to do to get us prepared for 21.

Remi Nirschl: 14:32

At 14 years old, it was in the back of my mind because I've been going to a lot of the informational meetings since we came here to Maryland, and so at the age of 14 is when I did really attend more of the meetings that were provided by the school by the local Howard County Autism Society. And I would just keep notes. And then I met several parents along the way with children that were transitioning, and I would talk to them, and they said it took them about three years and go to as many of the transition meetings to really get it, to really understand what what was happening, because the resources, it's so overwhelming, it's so confusing, that it took them year after year after year to finally understand it. That's what a lot of the parents I've talked to have recommended to me is to charge the age of 16, no 14, 15, and 16 try to go to those meetings year after year after year, and then at 16, that's when you start doing your research, making a plan. 17 is when you start implementing the plan, and 18 is when you execute. And so I remember that just by talking to parents, going to those informational conferences and everything, and I just kept that in my notes, and that's what I did.

Patrick Cadigan: 16:16

Remy, I do have one question for you, so what was, did you find those transition meetings useful, or did you find talking to other parents and families who were going through the process more useful for you?

Remi Nirschl: 16:29

In the beginning, it was the parents, actually the parents throughout, parents connecting with them, connecting to groups, connecting to the Facebook groups like the Howard County Autism Society has a group. One of the parents, she created a Maryland transition Facebook group, autism Facebook group. So I went into that one. We were both in that one, and I don't there's another group called self direction. There's a lot there are a lot of information out there in the internet, so connecting with parents is what's vital. But also the webinars, the conferences, were really good too, especially the SSI one that was really good, because SSI can be very, very overwhelming, and there's so much information.

Patrick Cadigan: 17:29

When you say SSI, what is that for?

Remi Nirschl: 17:31

Oh, I'm sorry, it's a Social Security Supplementary income.

Nick Nirschl: 17:37

So the way I understand it is, so there's kind of two kinds of social security, right? There's the SSI and there's the SSDI. SSI is for people who have never really paid into it. And so a lot of the children with disabilities, our son in particular, were able to take advantage of once they turn 18, they they can get a monthly income to basically help them pay for living expenses.

Remi Nirschl: 18:13

But you have to qualify for that.

Nick Nirschl: 18:14

So there was, there's a process to apply for it. We definitely took advantage of some of those information sessions to figure out how to put in the application.

Remi Nirschl: 18:26

Yeah, it's really confusing. The DDA website, the Developmental Disability website, it's so there's so much information and you just, yeah, that was really, can go down a rabbit hole with that still trying to kind of go through it.

Nick Nirschl: 18:48

I mean, the interesting thing was, like, once we went, once we got the application in for for rich, it was, it was, it happened right during the pandemic, and we ended up doing a phone call, meeting with the person within month or two, he was qualified, and he was already receiving benefits.

Remi Nirschl: 19:12

Yeah and I think we were, he was lucky In that we happened to work with an SSI representative who was really very thoughtful and wanted to work with us, because I've heard stories from other parents that it took them months to get their child receiving SSI. We were he was lucky. We were lucky to have been paired up with somebody who helped us through the process. And it also helped because the Autism Society had had a conference. They have a yearly conference with an SSI guru. I don't, his name is...

Meghan Smallwood: 19:59

Michael Dalto.

Remi Nirschl: 20:00

And he was helpful, because we talked to him privately, too, for any any tips that he can help us. And he gave us some really good information.

Nick Nirschl: 20:12

Yeah, he really laid it out exactly what you have to say and how you....the application.

Remi Nirschl: 20:18

I need to point out to parents, which is important is don't apply the day they turn 18, wait until the one month after they turn 18, because if you apply too close to the date of when they just turned 18, parents income will be assessed included in determining whether the child qualifies, and if you're making a lot of money, your your child will get denied. You have to wait about a, I would say, about a month after they turn 18.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:52

And I know the Michael Dalto sessions they did are on the Howard County Autism Society web page recorded, so...

Remi Nirschl: 20:59

It was really great.

Meghan Smallwood: 21:00

Yeah, so I was going to ask now that Rich is 20, and this is the year for exit, can you tell us a little bit what you've been doing to prepare for that?

Remi Nirschl: 21:12

Well, just last year, we went to visit with you the different day programs. Nick and I really started talking about, okay, what do we want for him? What do we see him doing? Do we want to choose the self direction route or the traditional day program route? And that was a discussion we had. I think the pandemic helped answer that question for us too, because since the pandemic, there's a lot of day programs that have been virtual. He doesn't like virtual. He hated the whole virtual more than that, and so I and there's also staffing issues. Currently, I think we've made a decision to go to the self direction route for him. And so the planning, we both have been researching like, Okay, what is out there in the community that he can participate in at the level he's in right now? He would just be doing volunteer work, because if he still has a lot more ways to go in terms of life skill. And so prior to that, we before the pandemic, we had Richie doing volunteer work once a week at a really nice like, it's sort of like a day spa cafe and and the owner was really nice, and she let us bring our son, and he would clean the tables, clean the rooms, so he had the capacity to do that. So we want him to be involved in the community, and so we're looking for more resources like that.

Meghan Smallwood: 22:59

Did you go out and make that connection with the spa? I'm curious how that started.

Remi Nirschl: 23:05

Can I mention, it's a Nourishing Journey. It's like where I used to work, and the owner, her name is Jennifer Palmer. Jennifer has been a friend of mine and has given you lots of resources over the years of how to help my son. And she's a traditional naturopath. She was someone I, you know, had always like went to for help with my son, and so it was natural. I would go to her and ask, "Oh, well, can, can he, you know, just do some volunteer work?" And, and she said, Sure!

Meghan Smallwood: 23:45

That's wonderful, yeah, being able to use the resources that you have and people that you know in the community.

Remi Nirschl: 23:51

And, and that's something we'd like for him to do, as well as continue receiving some therapy to improve his life skills. And and so we're still in the process of trying to determine what his day would look like, but we have a general idea of what that is. So volunteer work, continue with some therapy and...

Nick Nirschl: 24:15

Yeah, I mean, if things work out, it'd be good for him to do go to a date program, part time. That's a that's always tricky, because a lot of them don't do the part time...

Remi Nirschl: 24:27

Yeah.

Nick Nirschl: 24:27

...we're still working on that.

Remi Nirschl: 24:28

Yeah, well, we'll see where ditch will take us.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:33

Yep, we will go explore again. So I wanted to jump back, you had mentioned about considering self direction for Rich after exit. Do you mind explaining a little bit about what self direction is?

Remi Nirschl: 24:48

My understanding of self direction is that there's always that I have to do it a comparison to the traditional. The traditional is where the agency. You choose, makes all the decision regarding what kind of his day would look like as he enters into the day program. So they do the setup, and they will whatever lessons or outings they make, the decision versus self direction, where the caregiver parents with our son, create the day for him what his day would look like. We make that determination so that he has more flexibility and really what he wants to do.

Nick Nirschl: 25:35

Right and so, so when, when you go with an agency, they tend to say, Okay, this is the day program he's going to. So he's going to go to that one day program, and he's going to be full time at that day program, whereas with self direction, you can kind of say, well, he will do some days at this day program, and then he'll do some days where you can maybe have him go to the gym or do other things, the other activities, or volunteer for places. So there's a little more flexibility, but at the same time, you have to hire people, so that there's going to be somebody who's going to manage the money, I forget what that's called, and there's going to be somebody who maybe works with him as a one on one, that works with and so the parent is then going to be responsible for hiring all those people. So there's more responsibility on the on the parents.

Meghan Smallwood: 26:22

And I know a lot of parents, it's nice though. If, for example, your son is sleepier in the morning and can't get up, you can plan his day to start in the afternoon. So it works better for those who need that flexibility, or if they wake up and they're not having a great day, you don't have to constantly call up an agency to say he can't come in today. You just take it as it comes. So there's definitely pros and cons, and it's individualized.

Remi Nirschl: 26:49

There's a parent who helped me really, kind of really think through this, because I was debating which maybe the traditional route would be better, versus the self direction. Because I I'm overwhelmed, I'm tired and but then I had she helped me focus. Well, you know, what do you you have to focus on your son and what he want? And to be honest, well, I'm watching him through the summer and all last year, it was hard for him. It's hard for him to go to school now and wake up so early in the morning and and is this what he's gonna do for the rest of his life? You know, go to like a school, like setting, if you are a neuro typical child, that's not, you know, I don't know anybody who would want to go to school for the rest for their life, in terms of flexibility. When people want flexibility, right? They want to have voices. That is something my son has to have. He wants a choice. Even though he's non verbal, he's he's making it known to me now through other means of what he wants.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:59

Absolutely.

Remi Nirschl: 28:00

Yeah, and I could tell, and I'm willing to do that. We were willing to do that, to set it up for him.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:08

Throughout this whole process, I'm sure that you that there has been a lot of research that has been involved. How do you determine what is a useful resource versus not useful?

Remi Nirschl: 28:21

That's a good question. I'm still sifting at what is good and what's not good, and research is the computer and Google and Meghan, parents and...It that's a good question. I mean, that's a really good question. What is an...

Nick Nirschl: 28:41

Good resource.

Meghan Smallwood: 28:42

Yes.

Remi Nirschl: 28:42

Good resources versus... Less useful. Yeah, less useful. So it's it's a matter of, first of all, taking deep breath, learning, acknowledging your anxiety. You have to deal with your feelings, because the feelings that you have will block you from really seeing the information or reading the information, and I had to just kind of step aside and do some gardening or listen to music, instead of staring at the computer and reading everything, because my mind was just becoming jumbled. It was hard for me. And I love to do research, right? I love to do that and but because it's my son, the emotions of that was getting in the way, I had to step back and do what I need to do to to take care of myself, and then go back into the research, connecting with with the families, other families, with the Autism Society, with you Meghan, with looking at the DA website, putting it all together, and then I can see more clearly what is a useful information. And that really depends on. The individual, I can't tell a person was useful to them and what's useful to me? I mean, I think the key to to that question of what's useful is first, you have to know where you are, emotionally, mentally and spiritually before you could even read the information, what's in front of you.

Meghan Smallwood: 30:25

I've always wondered, too, with parents, when you are doing the research, what do you find the most useful in terms of, like, the format of the information, because there's so many pages you could just scroll. Do you like when it's broken down like bullets? Do you like having a visual timeline? Do you prefer, like, here's a link, click on that. Here's another click on that. I mean, I'm just always wondered what's the easiest way for parents to be able to digest it?

Remi Nirschl: 30:50

Question and answer.

Meghan Smallwood: 30:52

Question and answer.

Remi Nirschl: 30:53

How do you go through SSI? And then here's the steps to do it.

Meghan Smallwood: 30:59

And what does this mean, and who is this and that like, okay,

Remi Nirschl: 31:04

Also, I found a page in the DDA with acronyms, because there's, like, so many acronyms out there that being tossed out that they know, but parents like us don't know. Right? You mean FMS? What do you mean? SSI. SSI, I stumbled into that one. Nobody told me about it. I just stumbled. Oh, here it is. That's a good one.

Patrick Cadigan: 31:33

In the process, as you guys have gone through it, was there anything that was less difficult to do than you actually thought it might be.

Meghan Smallwood: 31:42

Sounds like SSI was,

Remi Nirschl: 31:45

Yeah, that was, and we also went through guardianship...

Nick Nirschl: 31:50

Right, so...

Remi Nirschl: 31:50

The thought of guardianship was overwhelming and scary, but when we plan to out what are the steps we need to do, okay? This is what I need to do, implement and then execute.

Patrick Cadigan: 32:07

When you talk about guardianship, what do you mean?

Nick Nirschl: 32:10

So when a child becomes an adult at the age of 18, in theory, they are now the decision maker, and their parents can't do things for them without them giving giving approval. And so for our child in particular, he's not capable of making those decisions. And so certain children with disabilities might have that issue. Guardianship is just a legal process where the court says, yes, the child is not capable of making those decisions. And so somebody it could be a parent, or it could be somebody else is the guardian of that individual and is basically the person who signs off on decisions, medical decisions and other things.

Remi Nirschl: 32:58

So for some parents, this may not be an obvious route, because your child may be higher functioning, and it's a decision that they have to make whether, if this is something that they will go through, because you don't have to go through it. But for our son, it was obvious.

Nick Nirschl: 33:16

Right and I can imagine that there's like some some line where kids probably fall like they can make decisions in certain cases, but in other cases they can't, and so it's a more difficult decision to make, as we said for our in our case, it was pretty obvious.

Meghan Smallwood: 33:34

Yeah, it's a very individualized decision. And there's other alternatives to guardianship too, which I'm sure we're going to talk about in a different podcast, but...

Patrick Cadigan: 33:43

As we've navigated through this conversation, I've heard you guys talk about several things that would be helpful for other parents. Is there, is there one thing that you're thinking about now that you just kind of look back and say, oh, man, I wish I knew that, or a particular resource?

Nick Nirschl: 34:04

Yeah, I'm not sure that we have that like...

Meghan Smallwood: 34:07

I think what I've heard is starting early is key, and doing the research, because I know you both have put the work in since he was 14, and you know, been going to the sessions and having meetings, and you're really dedicated to the vision you you want for rich and what he would be happiest doing, so...

Remi Nirschl: 34:28

I would say to the parents whose children are in the school system, reach out to your transitional coordinator, like Meghan, she is my son's transitional coordinator, and I'm really grateful, because, I mean, you have been so helpful. I mean, I said, Oh, can I email you over the summer, sure, yeah. And I made sure that I didn't, because I would needed to give you a break.

Nick Nirschl: 34:54

Yeah. And a lot of it is like, you run into certain people who are are really helpful, and then you stick. At them, and some people are less, less responsive than others, and so you just have to find the right people and...

Remi Nirschl: 35:06

I feel I find it that people are generally helpful. I think Richie has been blessed to have been with the teachers he's had and the people he's connected with. I mean, he's just pretty much kind of led us to finding really good resources. I don't know something about my son that's just, ummm...

Nick Nirschl: 35:27

Yeah, it's funny, because he has that personality, like when he's when he's in distress, it's really difficult to deal with, but when he's happy, he tends to attract people who want to help, because he's just got that personality.

Remi Nirschl: 35:41

And I say to parents, people generally do want to help. I think sometimes our anxiety gets in the way of seeing that, but there are people that are out there that are willing to help parents like us. I mean, I found that to be true so...

Patrick Cadigan: 35:58

Well. I think that that is a very positive note to end on. Meghan, that was that was really cool.

Meghan Smallwood: 36:14

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 36:14

I was glad we could talk with them. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to the Nirschl's one more time for sitting down with us, taking time out of their day, and we were going to do more.

Meghan Smallwood: 36:24

Yep.

Patrick Cadigan: 36:25

We already have a list of people that we'd really like to talk to and but we're at the end of our episode, man, we made it again.

Meghan Smallwood: 36:31

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 36:32

Good deal.

Meghan Smallwood: 36:33

As always, you'll find links to the information from our conversations in our show notes. We would love for the information from this and all our other discussions to reach as many families as possible, and we need your help to do that. You can find our conversations at www, dot P, twotransition.com, like, follow, share out the podcast. Our conversations are posted to all the major platforms, including Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube music, and that's just naming a few. So please share and share often.

Patrick Cadigan: 37:06

Please check out our YouTube channel. We've done some of the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. We have playlists for guardianship, alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts, and there's more to come. So please be sure to subscribe there as well. And finally, check out our website, which is full of information and links to resources around the transition process. Open your web browser of choice and surf to www.postsecondarytransition.com we thank you so much for the time that you've spent with us, and look forward to talking again soon.