Patrick Cadigan: 0:00

Parents of students with disabilities can expect the transition process to involve planning between them, educators and agencies as they work to shift their young adult to post school life. This process will involve identifying strengths, needs, preferences, setting goals related to employment, education and independent living. And no doubt, there will be many hard conversations along the way. And that's why we're here to help start with those conversations. Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition podcast, we have conversations around this process for families of students with disabilities, and I'm one of the co-hosts; my name is Patrick Cadigan. I'm a public school special education teacher and who is my co host?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:41

Hello, I am Meghan Smallwood, and I'm a public school transition coordinator.

Patrick Cadigan: 0:45

What are we doing this week? What are we talking about?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:49

I think a big topic that's in mind with all these transitions to high school is what to expect.

Patrick Cadigan: 0:56

Yeah!

Meghan Smallwood: 0:56

When you leave that safe space of middle school and go on to the big school.

Patrick Cadigan: 1:01

Yes, Megan has definitely nailed that one, this conversation offline, we've had a couple of times, because as an eighth grade middle school teacher, I have more than several parents who are freaking out right now over the whole transition process. And you know what that's going to look like. And this is just going from middle school to high school. So again, but there have been some changes this year. And where did those changes start?

Meghan Smallwood: 1:26

There have and for some of you, who may just be starting the transition path at 14, it won't look any different, because they're new to you in general. But for those who have had pages on the IEP transitions, now more embedded throughout the IEP, as per the state of Maryland, they want to make sure that it's considered by everybody, not just like a transition coordinator, or one person on the team, they want case managers, related service providers, obviously, parents, everyone involved to be aware of transition and planning for that post secondary world. So moving forward, the transition part will actually be appearing on the present level pages. So underneath where you might have like a reading, present level, written language, math, there's going to be secondary transition. And that will be updated every year, based off of those interviews that are completed, which we'll talk a little bit more about with your student. But it can also include information from other people on the team, there might be feedback from teachers, feedback from parents, there'll be information about things that are occurring, you know, throughout the year, like test scores, if they took the PSATs, any service learning, just a whole variety of thing to kind of show the student as a whole as you're starting to plan that post secondary path. So that's the big change, and then there will be other, there still be the other transition pages. But again, it's just a little more updated to make sure it flows into what else is going on in their daily routine, it transition isn't just a separate page or separate box to think about, we have to think about it all around. Because you can't just look at one piece of a student, you have to look at the whole person.

Patrick Cadigan: 3:15

Yeah, so as the middle school teacher, this was something that was very top of mine this year, and I really was paying a lot of attention. Because these were changes that were effectively how they were rolling out over the course of the year. So at the beginning of the year, we got some information, quarter the way through the year, we got some more information halfway through the year, all that information changed, and they wanted something different. And you know, blah, blah, blah. So there was really a lot in there. But to walk this back, let's start with idea, right? The federal law that talks about the requirement for special education, so a student hits 14. And part of IDEA says that that at age 14 is when those transitions transition requirements are triggered. Now, there are some states who had actually is younger than that. However, in most cases, or at least where we are, it is still the age of 14. So with this new change, like Megan was saying in the Plath. There are now delineated out two separate areas for transition, which is going to be education and employment. I will tell you what I have done with this based on the feedback and the information that we have gotten. And where I always start is the student interview. And we've talked about student interviews before because then they also play into the digital portfolios and things like that like this is when I do a student interview. I'm asking them about interests. If you like to read what books do you like to read the If you like to cook, and if you do like to cook, what do you cook? And why do you like that? And then TV and movies and the same thing? Or essentially, each one of these interview questions in the best of circumstances is going to lead to even more information that paints a snapshot in time, if you will, of where they are. And that is, that's where we're essentially starting.

Meghan Smallwood: 5:26

Can I tell you what I do?

Patrick Cadigan: 5:27

Well of course!

Meghan Smallwood: 5:29

I was gonna say...

Patrick Cadigan: 5:29

What am I gonna say? No?

Meghan Smallwood: 5:31

Do you want to hear the high school end of it? So because you get in that routine, kind of like it, you're saying, I do the same thing? I usually have the kids come in, and I'm like, Okay, how are your classes going this year? Tell me a class that you like, what do you like about it? Tell me a class, it's a little bit more of a struggle or more difficult for you? Why do you feel that? You know, they kind of just be first because they don't know who I am? They're like, tiptoeing around, well, can I really tell her what I think? And then it'll come out, like, I really don't like the teacher. And you know, we'll be like, Okay, well, what, what is it that you don't like about not this or the teacher, but the structure of the class. And it might be that the teacher is talking too much, or, you know, the work goes too quickly. So it helps to kind of pinpoint some of those things. Okay, so you're telling me that you really prefer a class that has more visuals, not just the auditory piece or so I kind of lead them down that path to get more information out of them? And then I always like to ask them, you know, what kind of activities or clubs? Are you a part of at school? How about upside of school? You know, do you have any jobs or volunteering? What do you do for fun? And then I start into the hole, what do you want to be when you grow up, because you know, at that point, they're, they're older than the middle school crew, and they might have an idea, or they've gone and toured some schools with siblings or thought about where they might want to go. But you're, like you've said, it's just about crud, trying to lead them into more questions to kind of get a feel for what they are thinking without them realizing they've been thinking they, they might have an interest in and showing them how they can explore that more.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:05

Well, and then playing off of that, because as it goes into the second part of that, of that block, within the present levels. So for the middle school, when I am doing what I do is a career preference, interest inventory. And then what really what that boils down to is I show like block of items, right? Like healthcare, sciences, arts and entertainment. And I say to the students, like, hey, what do you what do you think about these? And again, like Megan was saying, like, that's gonna lead into, you know, more questions. And you know, because a lot of times the kids are thinking very general. And they're like, Well, what does that mean? Well, like, you know, would you want to be a doctor? Would you want to be a nurse? I have a lot of times, what I'll get is, I want to be a YouTuber. But again, yeah, I'm recording all of that and stuff in there. And then the final piece of that, for me is then asking the big question in terms of, again, that snapshot in time. What are you thinking about? When you think about life after high school? Is college something that you're thinking about? Do you are you interested in that? Depending on the student that the responses can be? It's it just definitely depends on the student.

Meghan Smallwood: 8:24

Yeah, absolutely. And I know, it's hard when you get students who are very, very quiet and don't really want to open up much I feel like I'm really trying. Sometimes I feel almost like a therapist, like, tell me what you think about this. What do you like that you know, but it's all those probing questions to really get them to think about it. And I have a lot of students who it's hard to look at the big picture of things they're so focused on, I gotta get this assignment done, or I gotta get back to this class and do this. And I also find that with a lot of families, too, and, you know, like you were saying, Patrick, when they're thinking of going into ninth grade, at those transition meetings, rather than questions like, What is DORS? Or what is DDA? I know, the questions are more geared to her, what's their schedule going to be like? Where's their locker? You know, what's this going to look like? So it's more of the here and now rather than the big picture. And I get that, but I think one of the things we hope that the conversations that we're doing is that you can start thinking, you know, on your own, about those bigger picture, things that can help hopefully guide you through those day to day things.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:31

Yeah, absolutely. Because then the other part of that is, and this is, again, one of those things that I've always found really interesting in terms of breaking down between education and employment. One of my favorite parts is the interview with the families because then I start to, you know, talk with them about strengths and needs, like what basically asking them to articulate how they see their student how they see their child. And, and then again, focusing in on the middle school component part. What are you Your thoughts on high school like what are you hoping for for high school over the course of the next four years? And then again, within the with the intent of starting the conversation? What are you thinking about in terms of employment? Like, what are you seeing? Like, one of the things that Megan impressed upon me, was one of the questions that I always ask parents now is, Does your child do chores in the house? And if they do, what are those chores? Like be specific when you go to the supermarket? Are they shopping on their own? Are you shopping with it? Like, what does that look like? It always gleaned a lot of really interesting information, at least for me, because like I said, I'm recording all of it, and then putting it in that in those in those present levels.

Meghan Smallwood: 10:44

Yeah, absolutely. And I also like to see what, when I send the questionnaires home to families, or even in the meeting, if they share, I like to compare what the family's goals are, or what they see for their child compared to what the child's told me. And if they align, and if they don't, I'm trying to have that conversation, you know, in a safe zone zone, like the IEP meeting about, you know, this is what the your child's saying they're interested in, and maybe we can talk about, you know, ways to get to give them more experience to explore whether that's something and it's okay, if they have this thought now, it could change or just, just to put it all out in the open. Yes, I think one of the worst things is when we get to one of those final meetings, and the parents still thinks the child's go into college to be a doctor, and the child wants to go to you know, trade school to be a mechanic or something like that. It's just it's very hard for everybody.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:36

Well, and speaking of hard, I...we do, we do want to throw out a disclaimer that you know, obviously the the conversation up until this point, we are talking about students who when we are interacting with them, verbally, and then they are responding verbally, but make no mistake, there is absolutely ways to talk with students who are nonverbal. They are they can be indirect, it can be direct, again, you we are always thinking of it in terms of environment. So, nonverbal students have just as much to say and offer, however, we just kind of have to look at it a little bit differently. So, to that point, one of the tools that I have used, and Megan, I think you and I've talked about this before, so you probably use it as well as it's what's referred to as a photographic inventory, right? These are effectively pictures of jobs, different activities, and we're looking for feedback from the student. And also and again, this is where the family is also help. And the teachers as well. And even with our diploma-bound friends, I am going to the teachers as well. And I'm saying, hey, look, when I'm thinking about this kid's future, this is what I'm thinking, what do you think, and then they'll, again, they'll throw out strengths, needs, challenges, you know, what they think all of that is valuable, great information. And again, I'm I'm tacking it all in there.

Meghan Smallwood: 13:07

Yeah and like you said, we we individualize it, I mean, we're not I have, you know, a whole plethora of different inventories. So I'm going to pick which one I think will work best for our students. So if there's a student who is a different type of learner than one of my other diploma-bound students, I will go for one that's going to give me more information that they can, you know, easily understand and read, I've created a bunch of different picture interest inventories, just to kind of give a variety. So it's not the same one every year to because it's so interesting to see when they're presented with different types of pictures, what they might select. And I know parents have often asked, and I think we've addressed this before, well, it's just the picture like they, they don't show any interest in actually cooking. I'm like, Yeah, but there's something there, like something drew drew them to that picture of whether it's the food, whether it's the action of cooking, they have some kind of like for that. So obviously, observations is so important to whether it be in the school setting, if we put them in a foods class to see if they really like it. And if they do what it is they like, or if you're having them help at home and getting that information. So again, it's such a collaborative approach. And there's such a variety that can be used to find that information. I think we just need to make sure that we're doing all that.

Patrick Cadigan: 14:19

And playing off of the conversation that we've had in the past with somebody like Meredith, sometimes you have to think outside the box in order to find the information that you're looking for.

Meghan Smallwood: 14:30

Absolutely, and then like you mentioned, the teachers too. I've had case managers who have approached and I'm like, hey, you know, I met with the student and I didn't really get a good sense of what they were thinking in terms of, you know, career plans for after school. And this case manager who might have a really good relationship be like, Oh, he really told me that he wanted to do this, like Ken, do you have any information on it? I'm like, absolutely. So then approaching them with that specific information is a little more motivating, you know, and get that conversation going. So definitely call on your resources.

Patrick Cadigan: 15:00

Speaking outside of the box, I recently had a conversation with a family. And now again, this is a transitioning middle schooler. But one of the things that the family had talked about was an enjoyment the student loves to travel. And when they travel, they stay in hotels, and the student loves, loves, loves hotels. And I will tell you that that sparked a memory in me that there is a program that I'm familiar with, which is to say that I'm familiar that it exists. I've never actually like, known anyone to go through it. But it is it's a program that it's called bridges. It is through the Marriott Corporation. And I know about it, because I have a friend of mine who works for Marriott and, but it is designed and intended for people with disabilities to be able to get jobs within the hotel industry. And so I sent that along to the parent. And I said, this may not apply now, but just stored away somewhere. You never know. Things might change. But I thought that was really good.

Meghan Smallwood: 16:03

Yeah, but it also shows them that there's opportunities out there. You know, there's there's possibilities, and just that one little connection kind of opens that door.

Patrick Cadigan: 16:12

Yeah. So again, we have employment, we have education, the information that goes into those present level summaries, is going to include lots of information from teachers, to families, to the students themselves, to outside influences inside influences, that has been one of those changes. So now we shift our focus. We have a student now who is in ninth grade. The problem is, from the family perspective, what should I be doing to prepare my student within the context of the freshman year of high school? So the answer to that question is, Meghan..?

Meghan Smallwood: 17:00

A lot of things, but they're not overwhelming things are a little things that can be done, and should be done. You know, and I know, some of the things you've noticed on our webpage, if you've been there, some of the things we have listed for diploma-bound students, and some things are listed for non diploma-bound students. And we try to make it a little black and white there. But we know it's gray. And it's completely individualized. So we definitely recommend you checking out all the information to see which bits and pieces would apply for your situation. Because, for example, starting with the freshman year, for a non diploma student, we really encourage that they are participating in their IEP meeting. And that goes for all students with an IEP, even our ones who are nonverbal, they all should be in attendance, because the information is about them. And I think sometimes we get carried away and forget why we're all there and who were there for actually had a family once this mother would bring a picture of her daughter and put it on the table. During the meeting, her daughter was more severely disabled. And so although she could have been at the meeting, and she didn't show up for the beginning of the meeting, just to make an appearance, she went back to class. But the mother kept the picture there for the whole meeting so that we remembered who we were talking about. So when things got heated and things, you know, people were kind of digging their heels or whatever that may be. She's the reason we were here. So I like that idea. But just the participation in any form. Something else that applies for all students is to get a state issued ID card. And I have some families with students who are exiting this year who are doing just that when their nonverbal students but it is so important, because they have their Id just like everyone else has their information, it keeps them safe. It's you know, just something that they should get used to carrying, and hopefully can give everyone a peace of mind. Moving forward. We always encourage the transition coordinators, particularly about applying for your state's Developmental Disabilities agency, and your state's vocational rehabilitation agency around age 14. Now, I know it gets a little confusing about what are all these acronyms and what are these terms? Well, the Developmental Disabilities Administration in Maryland or DDA is that long term funding, who usually is there to serve those individuals with more severe disabilities that really need those help with functioning and you know, trying to live as independently as they can after they leave the school system. DORS the Division of Rehabilitation Services is typically more short term funding, and that can be for anyone with a documented disability age 14 and up and they'll give you different things and we've talked about it and other conversations we've had. But there are two different agencies that have outside of school resources and supports that we definitely encourage you exploring Seeing if it's a good fit for your child. And then something that everyone should be doing even before age 14 is just having that at home file for your child. And you know before 14 conclude any the IEP documents that are received any assessments like a psychological evaluation or educational report that's been completed any documentation that you might have, if you've been with the autism waiver, you can keep your information there. But as you get to transition age, I like to have make sure families have a transition specific file for applications for DDA, any information from DORS they receive, and just moving forward, I have families as they get towards like age 18, and they start talking about you know, guardianship, or receiving SSI, they keep it all on this one place. Because you never know, especially with some of our state funded agencies, I know, we know sometimes paperwork and get lost and things get mixed up. So it's good to have all those information in one place so that you have a record of it.

Patrick Cadigan: 21:03

And one of the other things that I'm going to throw out there when Megan mentioned earlier about just what I affectionately refer to as acronym vomit, because as you move into transition and start to navigate this world, there are a lot of acronyms, no doubt. So that is one resource that we have worked to build. If you go to the website www.postsecondarytransition.com. under the resources tab, the first link there is for acronyms and definitions. Now, we always throw out there that it's not a full and complete list because of course, transition is so individualized. However, in anticipation of that, we have some friends over at service coordination, and they have a glossary page that has even more definitions. So there is a link on our acronyms and definitions page to that, that if there is something perhaps that you're not finding, I would be willing to bet that you're going to find it there with service coordination. So give it a look, it's a good one, that resource. So one of the other things that I wanted to throw out there for our high school friends was, you know, kind of as Megan was digging in, to our friends who are non diploma-bound, with the making sure to work closely with the School Special Education team, to make sure that that updated that that IEP gets updated. And that's going to include those post secondary goals, and starting the process of researching and understanding the accommodations that are available at the post secondary level. Now, again, this is not necessarily something that you're going to have to worry about right away in freshman year. But just something to keep in mind Goodstart kind of familiarize yourself with that vocabulary and some of those things that, you know, you might have to deal with down the road.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:09

But that definitely ties in with the fact that students and their families should really understand their disability. I mean, I've come across so many students that are unaware that they have an IEP, it floors me that they don't really put two and two together, you know, they're just been getting copies of notes and being pulled out. But when it comes time to talk about what their disability is, they're like, I don't know, I'm like, Okay, well, let's talk about what you have, you know, specific accommodations for and moving forward, but you might need at the college level, or wherever you go. And they kind of just shrug their shoulders. So it's so important. And I see a lot of case managers who sit with the students on their caseload, and really go through it with a fine tooth comb so that they can fully understand it. Because on the intern, they can fully advocate for themselves when they know what they need. And it's such a good thing for them to learn how to do at the high school level, as they move forward in life, even outside of the next, you know, college or trade school. And when they get into a job, they need to learn how to be able to advocate for themselves.

Patrick Cadigan: 24:14

One thing that I'm going to throw out there. Now, again, this is focusing in on freshman year, but sometimes I feel like start in middle school as well. But big, big thing now is social media literacy, and working on those interpersonal skills, supporting savvy social media use, including safety and discretion, because that is one conversation that I have had many times this year. That just because you push something out there and delete it doesn't necessarily mean it goes away.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:52

Yeah, that's an important one. I think also, just as you know, you start like we mentioned getting familiar with like DORS or D DEA in our state to see what's available, also just encouraging, you know, some career exploration opportunities. And when I meet with students, and they might tell me that they're interested in something like, you know, physical therapy, I'll be like, Okay, do you know anyone who's a physical therapist? Do you have any connections to that area? And that, you know, they'll be like, oh, yeah, my mom's friend has her own office, I'm like, great. Ask if you can go shadow or sit down and talk to her about it. Just, you know, it's great when they have those formal internships or job shadowing opportunities, especially if they go through the vocational rehabilitation services. But even just through family, your people that they know, if they have, if they know someone who has a career that they can, you know, Shadow informally or just talk to him about it, he really gives them a leg up to fully understand if that is something that they are interested in pursuing. And then just thinking in general, and this goes for all our families, just making sure you build that support network with other parents, others, other organizations, there's so many resources out there in our state, for those families of students with disabilities. I mean, I can't stress enough, especially when you're approaching that graduation or exit year, how important it is to lean on others who might have gone through the process already, or who were going through the process with you. I know a number of families from my one school that we would go visit agencies, and then they would go out for coffee together and talk amongst themselves. I think it just makes everyone feel so supported. It's so important to remember that you are not alone in all of this. There's teams of people out there that you can lean on.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:35

Finally, I would say one of the other things to do is start to explore those post secondary options, right? College vocational training, employment community programs. And again, one of the interesting things that I always think of when having these conversations is this is kind of where the flexibility comes in, right? Because this is there can be tension here. There can be tension between what the families are expecting what the student is expecting, what the reality of the situation is. So you know, there needs to flexibility as far as I'm concerned. keeping an open mind in this part, can be can be more of a challenge than one might think.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:17

Yeah, absolutely. It's not going to be done overnight. But it's definitely some good points to keep in mind as you start this journey through high school.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:26

Yes, yeah. And it's one of the reasons that we wanted to kind of start this conversation, the way that we have, which is to say that we'll stop here, you know, we're going to this is we just want you to think of it in terms of, hey, I have a freshman. This is what I have to worry about. There's going to be other stuff that comes later on. But, you know, for right now, just start there. All right. So we'll pause the conversation there. Because people now have a long journey for their freshman year, and we'll be able to get into what to consider for sophomore year and then junior year and senior year, but all to be had at a later time. All right, well...

Meghan Smallwood: 28:07

Yes, we don't want to overwhelm today.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:09

Yeah, there's enough. There's enough overwhelming going on. All right, Meghan, you want to close this out.

Meghan Smallwood: 28:15

So we need listeners to like follow. And please share out this podcast because we want the information from our discussions to reach as many families as possible and we need your help. To do that. We're on all the major podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, YouTube music, that's just to name a few. So please share and share it often. You can find links to the information from this and all the other conversations in our show notes, you can check out our YouTube channel. We've done some the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. We have playlists, we cover guardianship alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts. And there's still more to come as we find more videos that we think will be valuable to use. So please be sure to subscribe there as well. And then finally, check out our redesigned website which is full of information around the transition process. You can find our contact information there too. So make sure to go to www dot post secondary transition.com

Patrick Cadigan: 29:11

Fantastic. All right. Well, we have more conversations to come. So please join us in the future and we will talk to everyone soon.

Meghan Smallwood: 29:21

Thanks everyone.