Patrick Cadigan: 0:00

Transitioning to post secondary education for students with disabilities involves a multifaceted process. Families play a crucial role in understanding their child's unique needs. Key components of transition include exploring available post secondary options, which could include college vocational programs, or and or supported employment services. Now, open communication, informed decision making and ongoing support are essential for a successful transition. So we're here having conversations that ask parents to think long term. Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition podcast. We have conversations around that process for families of students with disabilities. I am one of the hosts My name is Patrick Cadigan. I am a public school special education teacher and who is my co-host?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:51

I am Meghan Smallwood, and I'm a public school transition coordinator.

Patrick Cadigan: 0:54

And without further ado, we are going to launch into our conversation our interview for this week already in progress. All right, so today, after our discussion with ThinkCollege, we became really curious about what others were doing, right. So we started going out just randomly on the internet. We just started typing things in. And one of the things that we came across was the Integrated Transition Planning Project, which was something that was out of University of Wisconsin-Madison, and being who we are, we just sent an email. And we we introduced ourselves, we said, this is what we're doing. And would you guys mind talking to us about what it is that you're doing? And they responded back. And in that response, we were introduced to Tim Markle. Now Tim is the Director of the Children's Resource Center South. He is also a project manager for the Wisconsin Youth Health Transition, which when we had the opportunity to talk with him offline, then we got into this big long discussion about healthcare transition, and it was all really good. But we asked him to come on to formally sit and talk with us. So Tim, I'm gonna give you a chance to introduce yourself, can you tell us who you are, and what you do?

Tim Markle: 2:26

Absolutely. So breaking news, as happens with universities, my job has changed. I am no longer director of the Children's Resource Center South, I'm now project manager for the Children's Resource Center South and now I'm now director of the Youth Health Transition Initiative. So swapping of roles, swapping of effort, all those things that happens at the university level. So that makes me even more prepared to talk to you. I have more gravitas now as the director. So it's more work, but I love it. And it's through that work with Youth Health Transition Initiative that we were brought into the Wisconsin Integrated Transition Planning Project. Both the Wisconsin Transition and Integrated Planning Project, which hopefully from this point on, we can call WTIPP because it's a lot easier to say. And the Youth Health Transition Initiative, which because I really enjoy weird things, I refer to as Yeti(YHTI). And then I can go and I could put yeti's on my PowerPoint, and have fun and have really cool visuals that Oh, I don't know, people like teenagers really enjoy seeing because it's weird. So WTIPP and YHTI. So YHTI is focused on being a hub of expertise through the state of Wisconsin. We're based at also at the University of Wisconsin Madison at a center of excellence called the Waisman Center. The Waisman Center just celebrated its 50th anniversary. Part of the Waisman Center is a University Center for Excellence in Developmental Disabilities. Every state has at least one you said that's responsible for promoting inclusion and promoting equity for people with disabilities throughout their state. We're also a research center we're very fortunate to have a research center along with the USET. And then we also have a Leadership Education and Neurodevelopmental Disabilities(a LEND training program), which is also federally funded. And we are one of the few places that has all three in one building. And just in case you're wondering, the reason I know so much about LEND is I also serve as the family discipline coordinator for that training program. So besides the medical academic disciplines that are involved in the training program, we also bring in self advocates, we also bring in family members so that we have a true representation of the people who shouldn't be at the table, if you want to talk about family centered interdisciplinary care, which is what LEND is all about. So also out of the Waisman Center is the Wisconsin Integrated Transition Planning Project; it's a very large center. So the Wisconsin Integrated Transition Planning Project received a grant to help improve transition planning for Wisconsin youth with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And we try to bring together self advocates, family members, and the people who work in education, in employment and in healthcare. Is, we believe, this is the theory is that if we can integrate those three main areas of transition as youth and young adults are moving from high school into their adult life, if we can help them see how important education and how it intersects with employment, how employment intersects with health care how healthcare intersects with all of them. And if you're talking to me, then you're going to get the message that health care is foundational to success in employment, and in higher education, that learning how to take care of yourself. And learning how to interact with the healthcare system is going to give you a much better chance of succeeding at long term employment, and succeeding at long term education. Without that knowledge, I just see a lot of things fall apart if healthcare isn't included in the conversation. So the so we tip reached out to a number of different communities and said, Hey, who wants to work with us on this, because what's really important to the model that WITPP uses, which is called the Community of Solutions Model is to focus on that individual community. Ask them who their partners are around education, employment, and healthcare, bring them around the table along with families and self advocates when we can, because it's it's hard to get college students and teenagers at the table, especially when everybody else wants to meet during the day, when they're they're trying to do their schooling. And so we're really focused on those local solutions to help those communities figure out what's going to work in their unique circumstances. So we've had a mixture of rural communities, we've had a mixture of suburban, we've had some city, and not all of them lasted through the years of the grant, because you realize it's hard to keep groups together. But we have had some groups that have lasted through the three years of the grant, which we're just finishing up. So we're getting to that point where we're collecting the data collecting the stories, and what is the story that we have to tell from WITPP. And so we'll hopefully have more than that in about six months or so.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:52

One of the first questions that I have then playing off of all that you have just said, when you talk about the communities, I am very curious to know, does that include the school systems?

Meghan Smallwood: 8:03

That's what I was wondering!

Tim Markle: 8:04

Oh my gosh, absolutely. In Wisconsin...so you're gonna hear a bias come come out of me. Okay. I also forgot to tell you, I am also the father of a 26 year old on the autism spectrum, and he also has some mental health disabilities, and a 24 year old along with mental health challenges. So we have been active in the schools while they're growing up with a special education system. So...

Meghan Smallwood: 8:30

You wear all the hats.

Tim Markle: 8:31

Exactly, exactly. I am act...I need to pick up some hats and take them to Goodwill. So are the way when I started with youth health Transition Initiative. When we started even at the Resource Center, one of our national performance measures through our funders, federal government through the our funders was to look at youth health transition. So when I started looking at it in Wisconsin, the way that I saw it is that education owned transition. When you thought about transition services, what you're talking about is what is your school doing to help you in transition. So as I dug further into that, I learned that really there are there were three different partners that signed a memorandum of understanding to work around transition Wisconsin, and that was the Department of Public Education; so our educators. Department of Vocational Rehabilitation; our employment agency. And then the Department of Health Services / Department of Public Health. Any of those D's could easily be divisions. I am so sorry, I've worked in it for 15 years and I can't keep them all straight. So DPH, DPI, and DVR. DPH their role was pretty much focused on helping the students who access public benefits, transfer their public benefits, not so much on learning how to use the healthcare system, on advocating for the their own health care of taking charge of their health care. So a couple years ago, we were able to get a foot in the door and worked with them to write in how important planning for that transition is to the success and employment and to the success in education. We've worked really closely with our educational partners and I can there we've we've had a number of fantastic inroads with them as they're very open to working with us. So even with WITPP, we needed the educational partners because of the the force around transition that our school systems are.

Meghan Smallwood: 10:39

And what is the the age range then of the students that you've been working with?

Tim Markle: 10:44

So in Wisconsin, by law, the schools have to start working with the students at age 14. Wisconsin actually has an app called the Post Secondary Transition Plan that parents can go into, students can go into, they can figure out what, what's in that post secondary transition plan, can do it themselves, and then send it to the school and say, These are the things I'd like to talk about.

Meghan Smallwood: 11:09

Really.

Tim Markle: 11:10

And this, Yes, and then the school is supposed to walk through that Post Secondary Transition Plan with that student. And, you know, hopefully, those two of the families did their own in school do and hope they match up. But then the school one is what can get referenced in the Individual Education Program and Individual Education Plan, whichever P you want it to stand for. So with the IEP, so it's not part of the IEP, but it definitely speaks into the IEP and the IEP can reflect what's in the post secondary transition plan. But that plan is made to be an assessment-based, personal-based, looking forward to what the student wants to do after they graduate, based on their that that then informs study. It informs whether they're going to stay in school to learn 21 in the education system, till they're 21. It impacts all those things. Now, as you know, implementation of even the best tools is dependent on the people who are implementing the tools. So it's not like every single student in Wisconsin has this phenomenal experience with a Post Secondary Transition Plan and their transition IEPs. It's still very variable, according to the district, according to the student services people, then according to the teachers in the actual school. So it's still there's wait for my for my opinion, there's way too much variability and students are not being treated equitably.

Meghan Smallwood: 12:44

We see that, too, in Maryland, definitely the same. And I know with our state, they've been trying to embed transition more and more like you were saying, so that it relates to the goals, not just a second part of the IEP.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:55

That actually then leads me into my next question about that. When you talk about Post Secondary Transition planning as an app, do does the school system in Wisconsin also utilize kind of like what Megan does for a living? Do they have transition coordinators that...

Meghan Smallwood: 13:13

Specific to the school?

Tim Markle: 13:15

Yes. When available, when hired. Yes, absolutely. Schools are supposed to have a transition coordinator. Sometimes they have different coordinators for the actual 9 through 12 grades. And then another one, what we call the the 18-and-Beyond program. So that 18 to 21 year old program

Meghan Smallwood: 13:34

We find that the families really benefit from having that person that's their go to, and when you're it isn't consistent amongst schools and districts, but when you have that person, and that's the one that you've built this relationship with and that level of trust is there. You know, it really helps to move the process along, I find.

Tim Markle: 13:52

Absolutely and it gives that, that professional at that school, that transition coordinator, it part of their job, then is to look at the rest of the outside forces that are dealing with transition. And so you end up with these transition coordinators aren't just excited about the educational transition, the educational attainment of the students, but they're very invested in where are they going to get employed? Do they need to volunteer to get the volunteer opportunity to get employed? Are they looking at a trade school? Are they looking at a four year college a two year so they, they get invested in what I view as this integrated transition? Or not just focused on the education there. So my my favoritist people's.

Meghan Smallwood: 14:34

And I feel like as that coordinator, you're constantly advocate, those educators who still see just the academic piece of things and trying to make that connection. Well, let's look at how it's really going to help them for their post secondary goal, and how we can all work to getting them on there because that's what you know, we want we want to see that success.

Tim Markle: 14:53

At the same time. They're very aware of the indicators that we have to me as as educators and...

Meghan Smallwood: 15:00

Right

Tim Markle: 15:00

...sometimes I see that as not dueling priorities, but they're very conscious...

Meghan Smallwood: 15:05

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 15:06

...to keep those priorities melded together as the success of the student and fulfilling the indicators that they're being, that they have to

Meghan Smallwood: 15:13

Yeah, for sure.

Patrick Cadigan: 15:15

I apologize for doing this; because then after everything that you've just said, in a way, it makes me want to kind of switch lanes, because now that I know that the school system is is also part of that larger discussion, when you had commented about all of the programs that you're involved with being in one building, I would assume that then that means that this whole thing is a highly collaborative process. Is it, because there are so many stakeholders, is it functional collaboration?

Meghan Smallwood: 15:48

Do they collaborate is my question?

Patrick Cadigan: 15:50

Yeah, I get, yes.

Tim Markle: 15:52

And I am going to fall back are the age old answer? It depends. The collaboration that's going on one of our larger counties right now, through the WITPP program, Community Solutions model is in a county called Rock County, the we have people from the two major metropolitan school systems at the table, we have parents at the table, we have some of our support people at the table. One of the things that they are noticing, number one, they're working really well together and broken into subgroups, which is where real work gets done, because we we learned early on that if we just keep meeting and bringing in new people, we spend 60 minutes going over what we did last time, and you're never able to move forward. So we're really focused on okay, we can catch you all up later. But we want to stay focused on what these goals are, what the subgroups are working on. And so part of that is and so as we're looking at the end of the grant, what we're looking at is, is finding out, okay, where where else, are y'all involved in different groups? Because we're not the only ones thinking about this. So how can we take the momentum and what we have learned and transfer that to another group, one of the options that we're looking at, is through the education system. In Wisconsin, we promote each county, or consortium of counties, to have a county community on transition, a CCOT, that are bringing together these partners. And it's overseen by a group called the WiCOT. Wisconsin Community on Transition, which is part of our Transition Integration grant, which is a grant from our Wisconsin DPI. And so what we're looking at is when we tip ends, and we stop having these meetings with community if they decide to stop having these meetings, because it's going to be the local, the local solution, what what they want to continue, we're also working on connecting them to the leaders of the CCOT. Because this should also be the CCOTS goal. But a lot of the CCOTS, just like you guys were saying, they're not as functional as we'd like them to be. Because everybody's time is hard. Sometimes it's the schools with the administrators saying,"Well, you know, we really don't have time for that we need you in the classroom, we need you here, we need you there." And then the transition coordinators get pulled in all sorts all different directions, which means the system never gets better. The school could stay high functioning, so to speak, horrible term, but the school could could exist better, but it's not changing the system. It's not helping make those connections to the employment, it's not helping the students learn how to take care of their own healthcare. So we have some areas where they're working very well together, and we're seeing some some positive collaborations. One of the biggest areas, um, I guess, I guess it would be not strength, one of our biggest areas of weakness is helping the state departments to actually work together. And from department public education going down and saying, okay, state superintendents, the transition program is really important. See, cuts are really important. Working with your partners in transitions really important. This is an expectation that goes along with the funding that we provide you. Okay, DVR, that's great that you're now working in the schools, but you also need to be working with healthcare, which means that DVR has to learn what healthcare is about...

Meghan Smallwood: 19:19

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 19:19

...which means DPI has to learn about healthcare, it's about which means healthcare has to figure out what's going on in employment and in education. We're starting to see a little bit more cooperation at the state level. Because if the state is against change, it's a lot harder to make it. So we work with individual schools, we work with the districts, we work with the counties, and we work with the state to try to get that change on all levels, so that it can actually work. I like to think of it as working at it from a sandwich point of view. And when I work with with family These, you know, they're one of the foundations of that sandwiches, we need to have families involved. We need families driving and being in partnership with them. But we also need the rules, the regulations, the processes and the the impetus from the state players to say,"Yes, this is something we want you to spend time on;" and then make it happen. And so it means to them, then the change happens in between those two things. When those two things are aligned, great things can happen.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:29

Yeah, that's a good point. Because I feel like that Maryland has the same struggle. We have all these great people working in silos, because we all have the same goal. But no one's talking and healthcare is definitely one that is not discussed when we're looking at like our state funding. And our VR, you know, it's not, it kind of just is told to the parent, okay, well, you have those people that take care of it. So there needs to be that collaboration piece more. And I think the state needs to come back with saying how important that is, for all but...

Patrick Cadigan: 21:05

One of the things that I appreciate what you had said, Tim, and this may sound silly, however, the using the metaphor of the sandwich. And the reason that I say that is is because it's, after listening to everything that you talked about, it is something that is that is complicated. And, you know, it's like, if you use a metaphor, as simple as a sandwich, like people can kind of think about it and go, okay, yeah, I got that. Like, I remember when Meghan and I first got together, and we're doing this podcast, one of the things that we came up, we introduced transition as a ladder. You...

Tim Markle: 21:45

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 21:45

...when you when you go to school, you start at the bottom rung, and you were working your way up as you go through the school system. But that metaphor for me, not being someone who was, you know, transition coordinator, but a special educator, I understood that metaphor. And then that helped me to understand the process a little bit better.

Tim Markle: 22:05

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I love that ladder metaphor. And one of the things we talked about in when we talk healthcare transition. And I think education feels same way, DVR is more lifetime, you know, along lines, but the way we talk the way that I explain it in healthcare, and it's sort of a visual, so it's not going to come across really well in a podcast, but you spend you you have from like birth through, let's say, 18 years old, and you have that time and you get to build those skills, you get to build knowledge, you get to build your attitude of self sufficiency. And then you have this moment in healthcare transition, there's a transfer of care, where you may have to change doctors or you change styles of medicine, or you might change hospitals, the way appointments are handled, taking place who is in charge of health care decisions could change. And that will sometimes happen to an 18 and 26, depending on the specialty, depending on the healthcare system, depending on the rules that are in place, but then it's 26 through to the end of your life, you're in that health care system. Now, we all know that we can continue to learn as we grow older, absolutely positively. But there is so much riding are maintaining good health, keeping up on continual care, understanding how to receive that care, that impacts success in higher education and impacts that successes in employment is understanding your own body, understanding how to talk or communicate about your health, whatever device you may use, to help you communicate, being able to have that conversation with confidence. And with knowledge. That is the most important, you You are the most important person for your body. It's yours for the rest of your life. No one else gets it, it's yours. And so taking control that learning who to talk to about it, how to talk to about them, being the one in charge of making those decisions and letting someone know when you know what, this is hurting me. This is not okay. And having those self advocacy skills, so self determination skills, to speak to a manager to speak up for yourself. A lot of times, we are so good at protecting our children with disabilities and having to having to run interference in a system that's not designed for them. And that's not welcoming to them, that we forget that we also have to work on not making them compliant, that we have to work on giving them decision making power, though we have to teach them how to make decisions so that they're ready when that time comes. And I believe that is a skill. Yeah data is shared through healthcare, shared through education, and shared through employment, that decision making self determination is an underlying thread. And then it extends to where do I want to live? What transportation options do I want to use it? It underscores and underpins a successful life.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:21

You brought up a great point, Tim, just about knowing your body and your body is yours, because I think a lot of families that I work with, who their student is a little on the lower functioning side. And it's an automatic, they need me, they need me to say everything for them. They need me to tell everyone everything for them. But you're right. I mean, it's something that in the schools, we can also work on with them, just knowing their body, being able to tell even just the parent when something's bothering them, and pinpointing what it is, knowing who is a safe person to talk to. So I think it's so important. And I don't know what Wisconsin is guardianship a required thing, because I know certain states guardianship can be a Maryland's not one of them. But at 18, a lot of families are automatically saying, "Oh, that I need that." And I'm like,"Well, hold on, let's explore all options, because there's many alternatives that are less restrictive, that still gives them that power of choice." That could work, even if they are, you know, using a communication device; even if they, you know, are performing instructionally at a lower level. It's still possible. So I think it's just so important to instill those things.

Tim Markle: 26:35

And I am very excited that in Wisconsin, they did write in that supported decision making and other options...

Meghan Smallwood: 26:42

Oh good.

Tim Markle: 26:43

...need to be considered before guardian. So, so even if you're in the court, the judge is supposed to ask what other options have you looked at? Now, does that always happen? No. Do we still have a lot of schools and medical providers that are on the guardianship train? For honestly, good hearts of wanting safety, but the reality is, is that whoever has guardianship, that still doesn't prevent bad decisions.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:17

Right.

Tim Markle: 27:17

There's nothing that's going to prevent someone from making a bad decision, we all get to make them. And we all have to learn how to survive......our bad decisions. But I'm really happy

Meghan Smallwood: 27:25

Right. at the moment that we have an official supported guardianship law that our advocates can utilize. And we encourage them to check that out, we have a wonderful relationship with our board, for people with developmental disabilities, that just training around support decision making, and let parents know and educators and medical providers know the continuum there is in decision making. And that is also stuff that can be talked about, in that beyond a teen program, it can be talked about before 18, that it should be a part of that conver...conversation, as that student turns into that young adult... Yeah.

Tim Markle: 28:07

...as they grow.

Meghan Smallwood: 28:08

And that's been a big thing here. We do a lot of workshops for those families with Disability Rights Maryland. Who really are, you know, have been so vocal about looking at supportive decision making now that it is into law in Maryland and all the other alternatives and doing that before you head for guardianship. And I've had families change their mind, they were like, you know, you're we're gonna try this first. And they've stuck with it. So it's just nice to see that the information through the school system can be shared.

Tim Markle: 28:35

Yeah, it's a lot more difficult to change your mind if someone turns 26. And you at 18 decided that they were incompetent...

Meghan Smallwood: 28:46

Yes.

Tim Markle: 28:47

...and not take care of their own affairs, it's really hard to convince the court at 26 that all of a sudden, they can now handle everything, it's a lot easier to put other safety protocols in place through 26. And if you get to 20, and I'm just picking a number. If you get to 26. And just it's like okay, this is they're not they can't, right, they just for their own safety. It's you can get guardianship at 25 and 26. It's really hard to reverse guardianship at any age.

Meghan Smallwood: 29:16

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 29:18

Well, okay, so a student, a young adult leaves the school system, what programs are available to them? We have day programs, we have supported employment, we have self-direction, what, were, what does that look like for you guys in Wisconsin?

Tim Markle: 29:37

Not as robust as we'd like it to be. And I'm sure that's probably the same way in Mar...I don't know, maybe Maryland, maybe it's different in Maryland, where all these wonderful supports that students have all that maybe you guys have figured out how that they can continue to easily access therapies and access community help. So It's, it gets very hard for adults with disabilities that have been used to the wonderful supports that schools have given them an heart for the families with the wonderful support. So we are very again, very, very fortunate in Wisconsin that we do have these centers set up called aging and disability resource centers, they are ADRCS, each county or smaller counties can have a consortium. They are the then gatekeepers for the next number, one of their jobs is gatekeepers for the public benefits. So if someone is on our children's Long Term Support System, receiving Medicaid, and hit and receiving children's long term support help, they then can apply to become part of the adult Long Term Support Program. And they can look at the different options that they have. One option is very self directed. The other option is through a managed care organization. They are also there to help transfer if a if a child is receiving social security is they can they work with them to then bring that forward. Housing options are horrible. You have the option of some Section 8. You have some other programs, but there's not enough apartments, there's not enough options. It's it's just not. It's just not a good landscape, especially as you look at the more rural programs. And that's where we encourage families and communities, you know, it's going to have to be a home grown solution to figure out how to spin it up yourself. Because there's, it's no one's going to come in and give it to you.

Meghan Smallwood: 31:45

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 31:45

It sucks. But...

Meghan Smallwood: 31:46

Yes.

Tim Markle: 31:47

...yes, you know, we try to be real with them. So we connect them with the ADRC. We try to help them transition their healthcare into the adult health care system and line up who their next specialist is going to be if they need specialists, who their next primary care person is going to be. What does your insurance company say about therapy? Until, you know, because they can be covered until 26. And then even then they can ask for an extension.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:15

Ok.

Tim Markle: 32:15

They can ask their insurance company, hey, my kiddos disabled, they're not on public benefits. Will you still cover them? Please, please, please, please, please? I also learned this year with my own son, that they can say yes, for a year. But you'll have to reapply.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:30

Ohhh.

Tim Markle: 32:30

I was hoping it was a one and done.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:32

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 32:33

No; so we're now at the point where we're going back and we're petitioning our insurance company, again, to say that no, really, he is not able to sustain full time employment, and gain insurance through employment. And he cannot financially understand the point that he's going to live with us. We love him living with us, I would love to continue covering him under insurance for as long as we can. I had no idea that they could settle. So we have the AVRC's; we refer families a lot to our independent living centers, to give them that full that full care and then connecting them with if necessary Disability Rights Wisconsin and the Board for People With Developmental Disabilities. Those are the main ones that I can think of, that we try to make sure parents are in touch with. And then of course, the earlier connect with other parents, the better you are. So you're just there's just a wealth of knowledge and information from other families. And so encouraging that family to family connections is also really important, especially during transition.

Meghan Smallwood: 33:44

Yeah, yeah, that's what we we push the the social media pages and groups that have come up, I've been so helpful as a resource for families. What in terms of the state funding because I know Maryland, you know, the transitioning youth get priority when they leave. And the goal is for them to have a meaningful day. So the funding is to cover a meaningful day. Is that guaranteed for everyone when they transition from...

Tim Markle: 34:10

Yep.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:10

...school? That's eligible. Okay.

Tim Markle: 34:11

Yep. I believe that's following the latest change in the federal funding for vocational rehabilitation. Sounds very similar to Wisconsin.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:21

Okay.

Tim Markle: 34:22

And again, does it mean the opportunities are there?

Meghan Smallwood: 34:27

Yeah, that's just it. They can have the funding but nowhere to go.

Tim Markle: 34:31

Exactly.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:32

And that's we run into that a lot, too.

Tim Markle: 34:35

Yeah. And again, looking at the challenges in our rural communities.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:39

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 34:40

Transportation, actual job openings, consistent employment. It's just very variable sometimes, and that can get very hard for families.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:50

Yeah, I can't even imagine because, you know, we're, obviously in the suburbs. I can't imagine a rural setting where you've got maybe one choice, and you can't even get there if the choice is a possibility, but you know, it's tough.

Tim Markle: 35:03

Yeah, it gets tough really quickly for some of the families. And that's not even touching on. So the one of the other things that I wanted to talk about the other thing that I really kind of wanted to mention about the Wisconsin Integrated Transition Project, is that it really tried to focus on prioritizing equity. And so looking at those medically underserved populations, and so not just rural, but like the county that we're working in Iraq, is a diverse, a ethnically diverse community. And so we're looking at what are the different impacts on having systems that have been built in less equitable ways, on our students as they transition? Are they able to access the same programs? Or do we need to give them some extra boost? Some extra support? Who are the partners that we can work with? And so you start partnering with some of the local organizations that may be more involved in social justice. And starting to talk to them about, well, what are you doing for those, those young adults? Are they involved in your planning and in your projects? So equity is one of the things that we really tried to embed in the WITPP project.

Meghan Smallwood: 36:22

You're deep in thought, Patrick.

Patrick Cadigan: 36:24

No, just, again, I go back to that. There are a lot of moving pieces; and there is a lot to consider. And when you are trying to enact change, it just it takes a village.

Tim Markle: 36:42

have to think of it as a shared patients model. Because there are going to be times where any one of us get extremely frustrated with the lack of progress, the lack of change, and we just want to fold up the tent and go away and say, forget it. I'm out of here. And we need those people that say, Okay, we do that, then we have to start over again somewhere. So what can we learn from what we've done here have a little bit more of my patience. And let's continue to move forward.

Meghan Smallwood: 37:20

Well, I think of the parents too. I mean, we live this day in and day out, and we know like the back of our hand, and we even get frustrated. So I always try to put myself in the parents position. You know, this is all the acronyms and the the timelines and the terminol...It's just, it's overwhelming. You know, it's and I know a lot of families that kind of throw in the towel early on, like, I'll just do figure it out myself like, and I'll just go about my way and not rely on these things that I don't know. And we have a huge turnover with a lot of the divisions too. So just as they're getting going with somebody, they're gone. And they feel helpless again. So it's just it's a broken system.

Tim Markle: 37:59

Oh, absolutely; that's, and for our best efforts, yeah, nearly realized that.

Patrick Cadigan: 38:07

One of the conversations that we had with a parent who was going through this process very recently, Jane Plappinger, one of the things that I learned from her was, she talked a lot about forced flexibility. Because you walk into a situation, and you have a plan. And then the plan doesn't work for a series of reasons that are utterly out of your control. So therefore, you have to make changes. And then sometimes those changes aren't awesome. And then other times, they don't work and then you have to make more changes. And you know, and just it was, I was struck by her ability to articulate that flexibility. And then to not sound frustrated.

Tim Markle: 39:03

That is an amazing trait that I see in a lot of families. Because it's it's very real no matter what system you're working with, because sometimes the systems will update what they're doing without really adequately letting you know. And so you could think that you're going into the same thing from six months ago, but the rules might have changed. And you might have gotten an email, or you might have gotten a letter that said the rules changed. But the rules also seem to change as you're saying, Meghan, depending on the turnover and staff. Yeah. Is there are guidelines that are put out by different agencies, about what is available, what's not available the process, to to get to what's available, how to do it. Those guidelines can be interpreted in so many different ways. And so even as the families get used to it The, the, the person who is in charge of implementing the IEP, or in charge of implementing the Employment Plan, or who is in charge of transitioning their child's health care, when that person changes, how those things occur, can radically change. Yeah, the interpretation of the guidelines can radically change. And you're all sudden thinking you had this in place for the next year. And it's just out of the water is, we're not going to do that. Well, they; yeah, well, you know, they moved on. And so I'm looking at the scoring. No, we're not going to do. Oh, my gosh...

Meghan Smallwood: 40:40

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 40:40

The rug, is yet again...

Meghan Smallwood: 40:42

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 40:42

...pulled out from under your feet.

Meghan Smallwood: 40:44

And I know families that that's happened in the midst of that transitional time. Like they're like almost at the end, and the person leaves. So I feel like educating the families while they're in school, and they have the support so that they know the information the best way they can. So those people that are leaving and coming, and they're not relying on them. And I think one parent that we had met with, at one point said, "I'm the constant in my young adult life, I will always be here, these people are going to come and go, but I'm the one that needs to keep it all straight and understand it all. So I need to know what's going on." And I respected that. I mean, that advocacy piece is just so important. And I really, I think it's just so important for us, as educators to instill that in them and ask the questions.

Tim Markle: 41:29

Yeah, because that's a lot of a lot of pressure. Nothing takes a hole, nothing stops.

Meghan Smallwood: 41:35

Right.

Tim Markle: 41:35

When you have a child with a disability, everything else keeps going. It's just something else added into the mix.

Meghan Smallwood: 41:40

Yeah.

Tim Markle: 41:40

And there always seems to be something else added in the next a

Patrick Cadigan: 41:44

A leads to B leads to C...

Meghan Smallwood: 41:45

Yeah, yup.

Patrick Cadigan: 41:46

...leads to D. And then again, that that was why the, the metaphors, as far as I'm concerned, understanding this whole process are so necessary, because there is so much to it. And it is so easy to get frustrated. And I just sometimes I just want to, you know, stop and be like, how can we make this more simple? And I don't know, I don't know if that's possible.

Meghan Smallwood: 42:11

But, I will say I do love to hear about what's happening in other states.

Patrick Cadigan: 42:15

Oh, yeah,

Meghan Smallwood: 42:16

Like what's going on. And I think that's just so fascinating how progressive you guys are. And hopefully we can catch up in that sense.

Patrick Cadigan: 42:26

And I think that that is an amazing place to stop.

Meghan Smallwood: 42:39

Well, that was an awesome conversation.

Patrick Cadigan: 42:41

That was a really cool conversation. And again, I just want to throw out there that that the culmination of this conversation was us just randomly reaching out to, you know, finding a website that had something that we thought was interesting. And we were like,"Hey, let's send an email." And, and it ended up working out. So just really nice.

Meghan Smallwood: 43:08

Yeah and I love I just love hearing what other states are up to, and how our world of post secondary transition to Maryland compares to theirs. So it's just so nice to see you.

Patrick Cadigan: 43:20

It is indeed when with that being said, you want to sign us out?

Meghan Smallwood: 43:23

Absolutely; so as always, we need listeners to like follow and please share out this podcast, we want the information for our discussions to reach as many families as possible, and we need your help. To do that. We're on all the major podcast platforms such as Apple, Spotify, YouTube music, just to name a few. So please share and share them often. You can find links to the information from this and all the other conversations in our show notes. You can also check out our YouTube channel. We've done some of the legwork for you by curating videos on topics that revolve around transition. We have playlists, we cover guardianship alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts, and there's still more to come. So as we're finding those videos, we're thinking what will be valuable to us. So please be sure to subscribe there as well. And finally, check out our redesigned website which is full of information around the transition process. You can find our contact information there too. So make sure to go to www.postsecondarytransition.com.

Patrick Cadigan: 44:25

And needless to say, we are really excited. We have more discussions, more interviews coming up. So please come back.

Meghan Smallwood: 44:35

Yes, we're always here.

Patrick Cadigan: 44:37

All right, well, bye everyone. And thank you so much.

Meghan Smallwood: 44:40

Thank you.