Meghan Smallwood: 0:00

What is Post-Secondary Transition? Consider the question, what do you want for your child after they leave school? This will include research using resources and setting goals. It's a lot of information, and there's a lot to consider. So trying to do it all at once can really feel consuming. It will be a unique experience. But there are other families who are going through this at the same time you are. So we're here having conversations that will ask parents to think long term. Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition podcast. We have conversations around the process for families of students with disabilities. I'm one of the hosts My name is Meghan Smallwood, and I'm a public school transition coordinator. And my co host is?

Patrick Cadigan: 0:42

I'm Patrick Cadigan. I am a public school special education teacher. And today we get to jump back into our interview format. Ms. Meghan, do you want to set us up?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:54

Sure thing. All right. Well, today we are with Laura Karp, who is a public day school Occupational Therapist, and we are fortunate to have her to talk about some of those functional IEP goals that I'm sure you as parents have heard about many times in an IEP meeting. But thank you, Laura, for joining us.

Laura Karp: 1:14

Of course. Thanks for having me.

Meghan Smallwood: 1:16

We'll just start by, do you mind telling us a little bit about your background and how you got into being an occupational therapist?

Laura Karp: 1:22

Yeah, so my name is Laura. And as you said, I'm an occupational therapist in a public separate day school in Maryland. I first learned about occupational therapy when I was in elementary school. My school had an inclusive preschool program. And one day a lady came in to play with kids, she had a trampoline in one hand and a bucket of playdough in the other. And I thought to myself, Wow, that lady gets to play all day, I want her. When I was in high school, I started a Best Buddies chapter, and ended up volunteering in that same special ed preschool classroom where I first saw the occupational therapist. And then after college, I taught high school biology for a couple years and then went to grad school to become an occupational therapist or OT. And for the last two decades, I've been directing summer camps and overnight life skills programs for people with disabilities, and have been really interested in kind of the process of as they age out of school. So several years ago, I went back to school for my doctorate and wrote my dissertation on that transition into adulthood for young adults with disabilities

Patrick Cadigan: 2:41

Comment in about the last summer piece, what's this?

Laura Karp: 2:44

Oh, um, last summer, I became a master IEP coach, after completing a course by Katherine Witcher. She has 25 years of IEP experience. And part of the course was really like re-looking at IDEA law, and rethinking how we look at and how we implement IEPs. So some of the most important things that I learned from that course are that an IEP should always be focused on preparing the child for further education, employment and independent living. And that we should think about tossing out old fashioned IEP goals that don't make sense for a child's future. And the third lesson was that effective IEPs don't have more things, they have the right things. So I'm often in meetings where a child has 10 different goals, and I can't, I can't even imagine going into work and being expected, you know, to do 30 or 40 different tasks, especially if they don't have meaning or purpose to me, as a student.

Meghan Smallwood: 3:57

I can totally think of a student I had in eighth grade, my top middle school getting ready to go to high school, and the transitional high school meeting, the mom was so nervous about what he was going to need to accomplish in high school. They had at least 20 math objectives, no joke, like, and I remember looking at it thinking,"Oh, my goodness, like how are they going to tackle all this?" But there was the mom was just so focused on more, more, more means it's a better IEP, right, but it wasn't and it was it was tied to the curriculum, which you know, we great, we want that exploration and exposure, but in retrospect it would have been great to have more of those functional goals on there instead.

Laura Karp: 4:40

Yes, I think it's a common misconception that more is better, when in reality, there's a limited time in which these goals can be targeted. So the more goals and the more objectives the less time the student has to practice each one.

Patrick Cadigan: 4:59

I am sensing a whole can of worms with that type of discussion. However, however, before we dive into that discussion, one of the things that I think would be really helpful, Laura is, okay, obviously, you're passionate about functional goals. But for those who are uninitiated, how would you define functional goals for an IEP?

Laura Karp: 5:23

To me a functional goal targets a skill that is useful and practical outside the four walls of a classroom. So for instance, I consider knowing what to wear when it's snowing outside, how to prepare a simple meal, when you're hungry, or what various science in the community mean to be functional goals, because all students will need to use these skills once they leave school.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:55

So then, in that regard, why are these functional goals so important to have on an IEP?

Laura Karp: 6:02

So research shows us that transition age youth, so people with disabilities from ages 12 to 24, are falling far behind their same age peers, when it comes to post secondary education, employment, and independent living. Focusing on interpersonal skills, so those communication skills, those social skills and functional life skills early on in a student's educational career can lead to more successful transition outcomes.

Patrick Cadigan: 6:40

It's interesting to hear you say that talking about interpersonal and functional skills, there is a student that I am working with, and very recently, we there were some struggles around him focusing on his computer. And it had actually gotten to the point where I consulted with the family. And I said, "Look, I'm really thinking that the computer needs to take a hike." And they agreed, and you know, kind of like in an interim capacity. And I will tell you that the team made that decision on a Friday and I was really nervous about it. I lost sleep over the weekend, because I just had no idea what was going to happen. And we've been going on a couple of weeks now. And I will tell you that this student has blossomed inter-personally, I've had teachers that I know come to me and be like, "Oh, my gosh, said student said Hi to me." I'm like, okay, yeah, I mean, again, this is a student who historically not communicated very well. So it's, again, it is very precient to hear about functional goals and those interpersonal skills because, yeah, it's it's become forefront to me, probably this school year more than any other up to this point.

Meghan Smallwood: 7:54

Well, I think you really hit the nail on the head, it's a partnership between the family and the buy up team in the school, right? I mean, there's a lot of families that I work with that I feel like they want to push off a lot of the functional, like, let me give them their four years in high school first, and then we'll talk about it. And there's a lot of questions, well, why do they need to worry about this so early, you know, when their same age peers are just focused on other things. So I think it's just that conversation, it's a hard conversation to to have, but it's an important one needs to happen.

Laura Karp: 8:29

I was gonna say it's hard to because neurotypical peers are getting a lot of practice opportunities with the functional skills, you know, a lot of high school students have a part time job or, you know, do chores around the house might be responsible for younger siblings. So there might be trusted to go out in the community, go to shopping mall and buy things, go grocery shopping. And not all students with IEPs get those same opportunities to practice those life skills in a very, like, practical setting where, you know, it's not on purpose, necessarily, but I think, you know, most parents and families alike want to prepare their children for the future. And so for many students, it's embedded for students with IEPs, we sometimes forget that, you know, those life skills are incredibly important.

Meghan Smallwood: 9:33

Yeah, totally agree.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:35

Well, okay. So as we're continuing to lay the foundation for these functional goals that we're talking about, could you start with as I'm listening to you talk, I'm going to a whole host of other questions that I have, but I want to make sure that we're very clear about what it is that we're doing. So could you give us some examples of functional goals in different areas?

Laura Karp: 9:57

Of course. One thing that I see in IEPs is there are many middle and high school students with reading and writing IEP goals for skills like identifying the main idea characters or setting and developing a paragraph. These are often skills that students have been working on since elementary school. Functional IEP goals, on the other hand, tie mastered academic concepts and students strengths into skills that will help them in the future. For instance, functional reading goals might include reading a calendar, a schedule, or a weather forecast to gain needed information, like what to wear that day, or what to pack in your backpack. And functional writing goals would include things like making a grocery list, filling out forms or taking inventory. Similarly, with math, a lot of students have IEP goals for calculation, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, or identifying coins and bills, I was recently at an IEP for a student who had objectives like that, and the parent pointed out, but we, my daughter doesn't know that, you know, five is bigger than one that you know, a$5 bill is, is worth more than a one. So while these math and calculation skills are important, tying them into an area of interest, so for the Student It was shopping, or other interests, like cooking or leaving a tip at a restaurant can add meaning and engagement for students, while also helping them to prepare for the future.

Meghan Smallwood: 11:43

Yeah and I love giving out the the parent questionnaire every year for to kind of gauge like, what kind of chores are they helping out with at home? You know, what are their interests? And then I always use that like as a jumping off point, like, oh, you said that they load the dishwasher? Can they unload the dishwasher or laundry. Laundry's a huge one! Like, you know, okay, they can put the stuff in the machine, but you have them transfer it? Can they match it? Like there's so many skills, and that's something like that's a multi-step, you know, task, like there's so many ways to tie it back to the IEP, so that it's something that will carry on with them and is meaningful.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:19

So then how do you know what subject areas to write goals for? Who, who helps with that type of input?

Laura Karp: 12:26

So I think Meghan just said it best, the best way to determine those areas is by seeking input from the student, from the family and from the transition coordinator. The IEP team should be asking, what are the student's strengths? What are their preferences? What did they like to do? And what are the students and families goal for the future? So in my county, the two areas of the IEP that may assist with these questions are like the present levels and the transition planning pages. So I find those to be a great resource and starting point when developing new goals or determining other areas.

Meghan Smallwood: 13:15

Yeah, I think that's a good point, like talking to the family and the student of what their goal is, because a lot of times we kind of assume they all want the same thing after 21. You know, like, I know, for my one school, or they're all going to be employed, but that's if you talk to the family, that might not be what they're hoping for. So I think that kind of ties into another question that I had; how would you communicate functional goals to those families who are focused more on academics?

Laura Karp: 13:47

This piece is really tricky. Personally, I think we do a disservice to students and families by not bringing up the topic of transition and pushing for functional goals earlier in a student's academic career. Current research shows that less than one in five, less than 20% of people with disabilities are employed, and less than 25%, or one in four people with disabilities live on their own. So to me what these statistics mean is that our education system is not adequately preparing children with disabilities for that transition to adulthood. And when a parent or teacher is focused solely on academics, I try really hard to hone in on the student's strengths, preferences and goals for the future, and guide the IEP team towards embedding goals that are both meaningful and functional for the student. Sometimes families aren't ready, and that's okay. But as members of an IEP team, I think it's really important to remind families of how many more For years of special education and related services, the student has that unfortunately, many of those services drop off after graduation, and the number of young adults with disabilities that end up sitting at home with nothing to do. So, I think, you know, the reality is heartbreaking for many, and it makes sense that people aren't ready to see it or acknowledge it. But as a member of an IEP team, I do feel that it's important to always advocate for IEP goals that will help to best prepare our students for the future.

Patrick Cadigan: 15:41

It is interesting to hear you talk about this because I am the eighth grade teacher. So for my students this year transition has started. And then of course, in our county, we're making the bigger push towards focusing more on the transition piece within the IEP. So this year was the first year and then of course, you know, playing off of what we're doing with all these different conversations and the websites that we've done to wanting to be in the forefront of having that discussion. But just going through it and kind of like, as I'm hearing you talk, I'm like, hey, you know, what, this year, when I sat down and did my student interviews, and when I did my career preference interest forms, and making sure to reach out to the families and then asking them what they thought. And then when it came to writing those present levels, like kind of weaving it all in and making it somewhat of a narrative. And, you know, it seemed to me to be a really good idea, but...

Meghan Smallwood: 16:41

No, I agree, though, I think, you know, it's so important. And I know, it's hard when it's the younger age, they might not be ready, but I think we just have to keep exposing it and every family, it clicks for them at different times. So I think just as long as all members of the team and you know, everyone involved is expressing the importance of it and coming from different perspectives on how it'll help. Ultimately, the family will, we'll see it before hopefully not too late before the graduate. But you're right, the time is so limited, it's better to work on an hour they can. So that kind of goes into my next question, how can the functional goals help to prepare our students for transition? Why are they what are they going to do to help us?

Laura Karp: 17:30

So functional goals can help prepare students for transition by focusing on skills that students will need once as you guys say, the school bus stops coming, every student is different, and their strengths and their needs vary widely. So this might look different for every single student, like on someone's caseload, but outside of academics. So outside of the reading, writing and math related functional goals I spoke about earlier, functional IEP goals can be included in the area of independent community living. And so these types of goals can be based on the community on work, or recreation and leisure skills. For example, if the family wants to prioritize community safety, cleaning, tidying, organizing, or making a meal, this type of functional IEP goal would be most appropriate, and helping to prepare the student for the transition from high school to adulthood.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:42

I will say one thing I've learned over the years when we go to visit like day programs, the big one of the big things that they really look for our behaviors, you know, do the is there some self regulation strategies for the student that they've learned, but also the personal hygiene and the safety? So how are they you know, handling all those activities of daily living? And if they take them in the community? Are they going to recognize community signs? Are they going to be safe? Well, they look both ways before they cross the street. So those functional things are just so embedded in what life could be like if they go to a day program after the fact.

Laura Karp: 19:19

Right and I think that because many IEPs are so focused on those academic skills of ABCs and one, two threes. We give students who longterm, maybe going to a day program, we don't give them the time, the opportunities to practice and that direct instruction in those community signs and the activities of daily living.

Meghan Smallwood: 19:51

I also feel like and I'm sure you see this too, by doing our jobs so well, we're over prompting a lot of the time. times, you know, because we want to make sure they get it right. But we don't necessarily give them time for trial and error to make a mistake and learn. So I know it's like this fine line of we want you to do it, but we want you to do it right. And, yeah, there's just, there's a lot of pieces to it.

Patrick Cadigan: 20:16

Again, my brain always kind of goes to that, we're talking essentially about two different tracks of students, right? You have students who we know, who are working towards graduating with a diploma, and then those students who are not, and those level of needs can be different. And in some cases, like significantly different, significantly varying. That is something that I am constantly thinking about. So but again, I can appreciate this discussion around having functional goals, because, again, there are students who I'm working with a genuinely struggle to have interpersonal relationships or interpersonal communication, or you know, just things like that.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:56

Yeah, that's also very hard to I know, because Laura, I know you're at a comprehensive school, and you're at the separate day school. So you see a lot of the mix. And I know, at my comprehensive school, there's very little time in the day, to focus on these important functional things. And I always had an IEP meeting where we recognize the need for it, because you see those glimmers during the day, but the parent, many times in situation dive in and kind of dismiss it like oh, no, we will help them at home, we'll take care of it at home, it's not seen as an important thing to to work on.

Laura Karp: 21:31

And one thing that I have started doing in some of those instances, is meeting with the IEP team about ways that we can embed it into the IEP without making it a goal or an objective. For instance, you know, I've had families that you know, want their child to be able to wipe their face or their clothing after a meal. And so adding that rather as a goal and objective, but as a supplementary aid and service. So providing a social story, or some visuals, like a mirror and wipes to help the student learn the skill, and then adding into the IEP, like, encourage students to like check and wash face after a meal. So it's not necessarily a goal, something that you know, data is being collected on. But it's still something that we're able to embed in practice, because the student will be eating at school every day. And that way the team is able to monitor and, you know, report how they're doing, if that's an area of concern for the teacher or the family.

Meghan Smallwood: 22:42

That's a great idea on how to track it and keep it accountable to, but it also highlights the importance of it.

Patrick Cadigan: 22:49

I have to admit that as we were, as we've had this discussion, I was also thinking about that, but then again, thinking about it in terms of like, Hey, is that really something that I could throw in to supplemental aid or something? So it's nice to hear you say that and be like, okay, yeah, yes, I can thank you

Meghan Smallwood: 23:04

Confirmed. Totally possible.

Laura Karp: 23:07

Especially, um, as you were just saying, Meghan, if that is the type of skills that the day programs are looking for, like, it's so important for us to prepare our students for what comes next. And I think, you know, that's a simple way to add it in exactly. Just, you know, it's, it's something that classroom staff can easily like, learn and help with, it's a good skill for all students, you know...

Meghan Smallwood: 23:36

Yeah.

Laura Karp: 23:36

...even if it's only on a couple of their IEPs.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:41

one, I mean, they're going to look at those kinds of skills, well, who's going to require less assistance from a staff who has five or six in a group, you know. Individual kid, and who can wipe their face off who might go to the bathroom by themselves, you might be able to, you know, be a little more safe. So it's just it's so important. And something like you said, all school staff could easily try out with the whole class. Obviously, there's gonna be different levels of it, but at least giving them that opportunity to attempt.

Patrick Cadigan: 24:21

And again, playing off of that, I mean, we've had conversations with people who run programs and they have said that they they are looking for people who have a certain set of skills so that you know, can kind of fit into the overall program and, you know, sometimes, you know, a higher level of need presents...

Meghan Smallwood: 24:39

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 24:39

...a different set of challenges.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:42

So then, you know, thinking of the different levels of our students, is it possible to change these functional goals for our students, whether it be simplifying them or making them more difficult or complex?

Laura Karp: 24:52

Of course. Like all IEP goals, functional goals should be individualized to the unique needs of each student. So once that goal area, whether it's academic community or work is determined, then the team needs to get a measurable baseline, you know, what can the student do on their own completely independently, if they're requiring support, how many prompts you know what types of prompts are required, and how accurate is the student, you know, given the prompts and supports, and then we can modify the goal. So for instance, let's say a family wants their child to be able to prepare a meal. A simplified goal might be to mix pre measured items in a bowl. So maybe like making a salad where all the ingredients from a bag or all the ingredients are already measured out, or to heat up a prepared meal in the microwave, a more challenging goal would be to have a student prepare a meal that requires measuring, mixing, baking, or boiling, depending on their safety awareness, of course. And either way, the IEP team would split up the functional goal into measurable and achievable pieces, which we call objectives that the student can work on throughout the course of the IEP in order to achieve that overall skill of preparing a meal.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:27

And going back to what you were saying before about those functional areas, like as if they were related to reading or writing my thinking goes to filling out a job application, you know, being able to sit down and knowing what information to put in the job application, recognizing what information that they don't have, and that they'll have to ask, they will have to ask help for in order to figure it out. So yeah, that's really interesting.

Meghan Smallwood: 26:53

Well, I think of that, and I think of all the levels that come with it, like it could just be recognizing their name and print, or carrying a card that they know to hand to someone if they're asked what their information is. So yeah, like Laura said, there's so many different ways to customize it. And then I like when you're talking about, you know, preparing for a meal, like, it's a great way for families to practice to, you know, and it could be something as simple as having them put their bowl in the sink when they're done. I think a student can do at least one part of it, you know, because I know so many times I hear family say, Well, no, they're not capable. No, there's there's a part that they are capable of, we just have to find it.

Laura Karp: 27:33

Right. And I think that is part of the beauty of both special education and occupational therapy, that we both have that strength, space focus, let's figure out what the child the student can do and kind of base the learning on that. Like, can we can we stretch it a little more, they can do one step by the end of the year, can they do two steps, right? They can do the five steps of handwashing, by the end of the year, can they you know, also wash their face, whatever it might be.

Meghan Smallwood: 28:07

Right. And then I love hearing the success stories from the families when they actually do see it come to fruition. And they're like, oh, my gosh, they're doing it independently now. So it just makes it all worth it.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:16

One of the things that I don't think that I appreciated lor, is the fact that you do you do have a doctorate. So you first you came into it, looking from the school system, looking at the practical application, right? Like, this is what we're doing like this is the way that the school system does it. But then through your doctoral program, hearing you bring that level of information to it, like the statistics and the things that you had mentioned earlier. It just, again, it kind of makes me think about it on a level that I had not thought about it before. As it relates to the introduction of transition. Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. It's interesting to me.

Meghan Smallwood: 29:04

Well it's just amazing to see how it all ties in together.

Patrick Cadigan: 29:07

Yeah, I was gonna do that make sense? Did I just sound like a dork?

Meghan Smallwood: 29:11

I could see the wheels turning.

Patrick Cadigan: 29:13

Yeah. I know the direction that I wanted to go. Yeah, I don't know if I got there. But it...it...

Laura Karp: 29:19

I mean, I think it's challenging because in any post secondary program, you know, they're focused on Alright, we're teaching from the evidence, like we're teaching these best practices. And there are best practices in special education. But in reviewing literally thousands of articles in the transition literature, like some of those best practices are missing. And so while like diving deep into that literature of that transition, it's, it was disheartening to see Eat that a big part of the problem is that lack of evidence that, you know, there are practices that will help. And because of that, I really focus my research on okay, what is evidence based. So peer support is evidence based, starting early. So working on these functional skills early and earlier and earlier is evidence based, using visuals and social stories is evidence based. But there's there's nothing that, you know, points to okay, this is the key to success. Do this and everything will be magic. So school where you're in the ideal. And you know, we're we're all working in that public education, that practical setting.

Patrick Cadigan: 30:50

Well in playing off of that, I recently had a conversation with some friends that Megan and I made in Wisconsin, and that is a future discussion that we're going to have, where we'll have a chance to sit down and talk with them. But through the course of that conversation, one thing that I thought was really interesting was that they were able to break down transition within their state based on geolocation, because the way that they described it was is that if you were in southern Wisconsin, then the transition skills that they were going to navigate you towards were different than the ones that if you were in northern Wisconsin, just based on their economy, and what they do, and in the different areas. And again, it was something that I had not thought of before, even though many times we say that transition itself is very individualized. So it was just a very, it was a very enlightening conversation to have. And I was fascinated to hear those differences.

Laura Karp: 31:54

Makes sense, especially considering the community supports that teachers or families or transition coordinators, you know, might be utilizing to help get students out into the community, you're going to use whatever's around you that that's, that's fascinating that, you know, they were able to mark such a difference based on geography.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:16

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 32:17

Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking with them. And kind of delving a little bit deeper into it, because one of the things that had also come up in that conversation, Meghan, and I had just finished having our discussion around health care transition. And just know, I didn't prompt, the I didn't prompt the conversation. But as I met with this group, they the first thing out of their mouth was health care transition. And I was like, okay, so, and I was worried because if they were in Wisconsin, that I wasn't going to know what they were talking about. But as it turns out, as the conversation progressed, there's a lot of common language which made it very helpful, and, and again, in being able to dive into the differences, and then, you know, figuring out who does what differently, and why did they do it that way. And when they talked about their interactions with the school system, it again, it sounded very different than the interactions in the school system that, you know, we, I, we have gotten used to. And speaking of the differences from state to state, let me use this as a segue very quickly to throw out our Well That's Helpful resource for this week. Now, we're going to highlight a discussion that I recently came across from Disability Rights Florida, the most recent conversation on their podcast, You First has two parent advocates, and they discuss the nuances of the IEP process. But my ears really perked up when they started a discussion on transition, and more specifically, what it looks like in the state of Florida. So there will be a link in the show notes to that specific discussion. But in general, Disability Rights Florida has done a really nice job on their You First podcast, and I champion anyone to subscribe to it. They have a lot of thoughtful discussions that I personally have found useful. So look them up either at their website or on your podcast platform of choice. And like I said, there will be a link in the show notes. And once again, another outside the state resource.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:24

Yeah, I find that so interesting to hear how it differs from state to state. And I think it's handy for parents here too, because I know you know, when you're thinking of long term goals, and maybe you want to retire a different state, well, you really have to become familiar with what is available there. And what would work for your family. But you know, what would work functional IEP goals? Just tying it back there.

Patrick Cadigan: 34:47

All right, so we were on a divergent conversation. The ole' fork in the road, but then Meghan brought it right back. Brilliant.

Meghan Smallwood: 34:55

Yep.

Patrick Cadigan: 34:55

Brilliant. All right. Meghan, do you have anything else?

Meghan Smallwood: 34:58

No, I think that was...

Patrick Cadigan: 35:01

Brilliant. Well, I will tell you what I would say that that was a, that was a full conversation.

Meghan Smallwood: 35:06

That was good.

Patrick Cadigan: 35:07

Yeah.

Meghan Smallwood: 35:07

Thank you so much, Laura.

Patrick Cadigan: 35:09

Yeah, thank you.

Meghan Smallwood: 35:09

Appreciate it.

Patrick Cadigan: 35:10

That definitely got me thinking about it in a different way.

Meghan Smallwood: 35:13

No it was perfect tie in. And like the focus, I think, this year, especially is really been, how can we start earlier? What can we do to get families in earlier, especially with the middle school, you know, push, so I think this is perfect.

Patrick Cadigan: 35:35

Well, that was, that was a very cool conversation. It's nice to be back in and talking, talking with people.

Meghan Smallwood: 35:43

Agree and I love hearing the real life stories and how it really can fit in and it all ties together.

Patrick Cadigan: 35:50

It does all tie together. All right. Well, with all of that being said, follow the information from this conversation in our show notes. Like, Follow and please share out the podcast, we are looking to spread the word to as many families that are going through this process as we can. Visit our YouTube channel, we've posted videos of all of our all of our conversations, including doing some of the legwork for you. We've curated videos of topics that revolve around transition that include playlists, they cover guardianship, alternatives to guardianship, ABLE accounts. And there is always more to come, the more videos we find. So be sure to subscribe there as well. And then finally, check out our website, which is chock full of information around the transition process. At this time, I am very comfortable to say that we have now officially moved over to what would be considered version 2.0 of the website. It has been refreshed and rewritten from the ground up. So go check it out. www.postsecondarytransition.com. And we are looking forward to more pages and more conversations in the future. All right. Well, there we go. And we have I believe that the we have another conversation coming up very soon.

Meghan Smallwood: 37:04

We do, I'm excited it for.

Patrick Cadigan: 37:06

I'm sorry. I shouldn't say conversation because we're always having conversations; another interview.

Meghan Smallwood: 37:11

Yes.

Patrick Cadigan: 37:12

All right. Well, then we're looking forward to that. So then please come back and listen to us anytime. We really appreciate it and we'll talk with you soon.

Meghan Smallwood: 37:21

All right. Thanks, everyone.