Patrick Cadigan: 0:20

Ha, I have attacked the record button. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. We are here for the Post-Secondary Transition podcast where we have conversations around the ins and outs and everything in between or the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I'm one of the hosts. My name is Patrick Cadigan. And who is my co-host?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:39

And I am Meghan Smallwood, and I'm a public school transition coordinator. And before we begin our conversation, we'd like to give our listeners a definition of what we're talking about post secondary transition that really just focuses between ages 14 through 21, and helps answer that question of what do you want for your child after they leave school? We're looking to help answer that question by asking parents to think long term, the milestones ahead of you the research the resources, the goals you have.

Patrick Cadigan: 1:05

And how do we define long term? Well, what do you want for your child to be doing after the school bus stops coming? Right, this is different for everybody. It is a completely individualized experience. So, along with that individuality can come loneliness. And in some cases, a sense of isolation. It really is a unique experience. But there are other families who are going through this, and probably at the same time, you are.

Meghan Smallwood: 1:34

Right. And along that journey, there are milestones that you need to focus on. Some of these milestones are built around timeframes, but others can be at your own timeframe, when you're comfortable and ready to tackle them. Using your child school experiences will really help while doing the research. Using the resources at your disposal to such as your special educator, general education, teachers, school administration, or if supported at your school, the transition specialist and other outside agencies. It's a lot of information, and there's a lot to consider. And in many cases, the answers will not always immediately present themselves. There might be some give and take. And there will be things that you do that might not have the desired outcome, trying to do all that at once can really feel consuming. So we're really here to help clear away some of that fog.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:20

So for today's conversation, we had a chance to sit down with Liz Burley, a transition coordinator with 40 years of experience now she worked in neighboring Prince George's County, but Liz his resume is is too long to recite. But she worked as a transition coordinator. She was a member of the Council of Exceptional Children actively participates in the arco PG County, including one on one style discussions about transition, which consequently is how we found her without further ado.

Meghan Smallwood: 3:02

All right, so today we are fortunate enough to have Liz Burley with us. Thank you for joining us, Lis Thank you for having me. And Liz has a lot of background with transition specifically with Prince George's County. So I guess we'll just dry it, dive right into it. If you don't mind. Just telling us a little bit about your background.

Liz Burley: 3:21

Well, I'm a native New Yorker and I came down here to go to the University of Maryland. So I'm a Terp forever. Started out actually in pre-med before I decided that okay, me and organic chemistry do not get along.

Meghan Smallwood: 3:34

Oh, wow, what a switch.

Liz Burley: 3:37

I decided to go into the passion that I've always had, which was special education. I come from a family of educators. My dad worked in my church organization to where we had a Sunday school for special needs. So that had always been a passion of mine. So I got my degree in Special Ed had done student teaching here in Prince George's County, in both elementary and in special ed and of course Special Ed was, was where my heart was. I started teaching at a Special Education Center, which was the old Princess garden special center where students came my classroom actually with students based on that came out of the state institution, a great oaks center. And I always had the secondary students I always loved my older kids. So it became I got so involved with the kids and doing some simple things that the attention that they did not get at the institution. So on Fridays, we installed like our grooming day, where we did handwired nail polishing and shampooing hair and curling hair and, and doing all sorts of nice grooming things. And then we had a dance in the afternoon and everybody kind of loved it. You know, the boys were involved. The girls were involved. I had boys blow drying girls hair, all sorts of things that the kids just relished. It became so impassioned that I used to go out and visit at Credo center so I knew my way around that quite a bit, even involve my son who was very small at the time, I'd say probably three years old. Now, so he'd start racing wheelchairs around the cottages that he had out there. So he became very involved as Well. I stayed at Princess garden, we moved into the Margaret bank building. So my special center career was about five years, I then went over to a high school where I worked with diploma-bound students. And in they were in self contained classes at the time and did academics. So it was a big change during that career time, but I saw the potential in so many of these young people. And I actually have contact with a lot of those same students today, they have several on speed dial, someone has a tow truck company, you know, I knew whom I want to go to. And so they become very close to me, the bond was right there from the beginning, because kids know, which teachers kind of care about them. And they can pick up that sense with them. So I had kids that had never academically done anything, young men that couldn't read. And then by the time he graduated, he actually had made on a roll for the first time. And his mother was just so thrilled and delighted. And he was, and even though he learned how to accommodate himself, you know, with the use of technology and texting and things were, you know, the predictors of words would come up, that was a big thing. So I stayed in the high school years, for about half of my career, and then I would went into central office. So I became a resource teacher for other teachers. So I'd go into the buildings and help other schools set up certain things in certain programs. In 2007, we implemented a transition coordinator specialist position, which was a 12 month administrative position, which I held. And just because we were fighting a little bit more, to get more transition services to our students, and putting the emphasis on transition that the state had put in place. Early on in my career, I actually became also a foster parent for some young adults that had been a great oaks center. So they were at one of the centers and graduated in both 88 and 89. And time with the state going into any of the adult service programs, it was a seven year waiting list for any party to get into some of the adult programs. So the waiting lists was was very high in the budget was not there to fund a lot of these programs. As as being a foster parent, I could see the different challenges with the adult services as Well as families, and I saw how desperate families were to get their young people into these adult programs. Thankfully, with a lot of advocacy, I think from parents, and because parents are the key to everything, they put in place the governance transitioning youth initiative, and that guaranteed that the students leaving school had guaranteed spots that first year they left school. So if they access services during that first year of leaving school, that needed day programs from the long term services, they could access that within that first year. And that became really critical to many families. So that's why transition became so important for families to understand if they needed a program for the young person that needed services. During that time, that they needed to make sure that their applications were in and they followed through during the first year. Otherwise, they got put back at the bottom of a waiting list. You know, which could be several years long, you know, and that that became, you know, my mantra to making sure parents understood that this was a long term process. Because many of our students have a lot of skills, because if they're not that strong academically doesn't mean that they're not great employees, and that they don't have great work skills, or that they're not college material, because some of our students were very much so college material. They just had to find their niche. So being able to get a student to figure out what they love to do. And trying to make that a career. You know, and understanding Do I like working with my hands? Do I want to do something sitting down? Do I can I sit down in an office job and if I'm ADHD, a sitting job may not be the best thing for me understanding that and in trying to get the parents to understand that. Even my mother sometimes he's just so worried about a good government job. And I have a son that went into the Air Force, and he's not one that likes to sit in an office. So those good government jobs while you're sitting in an office is not something that he would particularly like. So it's about getting students and families and everybody has to find their niche. What is going to be meaningful to them? Those are the biggest keys, I think, for any student going to school. And it's Okay if you change your mind within want to do but then go back and say, Okay, what is it that I really like to do? Knowing that you don't like it is just as important as finding one that you do like, okay, because if you, if you do some trial in different job shadowing or following somebody else, or talking to somebody else about their job, when you eliminate jobs that you know, you don't want to do is just as important as finding out the right one for you. Those are keys, you know, and I used to tell my students all the time, it didn't matter whether you worked with the trash trucks, because those guys make really good money. So if you could handle the smell, and the heavy lifting, and being out in all kinds of weather, great, and then work your way up and start owning the business, doing those types of things. So that's where trying to get the kids to understand their passion and understanding what they're really good at doing. So those were some of the things that I've done over the, over the years with my students, we used to do a Career Expo each year, and would bring all the schools together and what usually did at the community college, and with kids would go to different seminars almost like do things about self advocacy, they do dress for success, you know, what do I wait for that interview? How do I, we had our speech pathologist come in and actually do mock interviews with the students that was so eye opening both the speech pathologists, as Well as the the students, and the students walked away with an evaluation of their interview, and what they needed to work on. Now, so those things we had guest speakers come in, and each student, each school kind of nominated their outstanding student for an award. And those became really important for our students, they look forward to it, we made the kids dress up, you know, like you're going for an interview. So, you know, here's your chance to be up on the community college campus and see how things are, interact with different people, a lot of companies or were there to hire colleges were there. So different places were there for our diploma-bound students as Well, are transitioning youth fairs for our certificate, students became longer. We had more and more agencies participating, they put together provide a council so that all the adult agencies work together in all aspects of what they were looking for. It even we even got put into place a unified application for the adult agencies, so that every agency didn't have a different application that parents had to fill out, which was great, because he filled out one application for several participating agencies, and they could just Xerox it, you know, and then use it for any of the agencies that were there instead of trying to complete all these different applications. And those are the things that I think are really key and getting parents to understand how important it is and their role in in all of this. For our transitioning us going into the adult agencies, those a lifelong programs that the students can get into once they apply for the developmental disability administration with TDA. That's a lifelong thing. They don't have to keep reapplying. So those are the key things because I always want our parents to push our young people to be as independent as possible. You know, no matter what it is, whether you're doing hand over hand, where you're lifting the cup over to the sink, or each kid is pulling the trash from each room in your house and doing some of those things to contribute. Whatever ever a young person can do, they need to do to be a part of that, because they want to feel important, and they want to feel a part of the family unit as Well. And that helps them to do that. If we do everything for our young people, they'll never be independent. Even for our non disabled children, I know colleges used to call the parents the helicopter parents age. This is a generation of helicopter parents because the parents are calling the colleges and want to talk to the professor's and, you know, give the kids excuses of why they weren't there or, you know, they had a paper they need extra time. Getting to know the differences between what you're entitled to during those school years and your school age years for public school as compared to what you have to become eligible for when you go to college. You're not going to be accepted at every college you apply to because everybody has their own criteria. And that's the same also with adult agencies. Every agency has their criteria of clients that they're looking for and the services that they provide. And every agency may provide different services. So was about them understanding and looking and searching for the right agency that's going to match their young adults needs and their needs. Do they provide transportation? Will they need us Metro access? How will they get there? So those are some of the important things that all parents really need to focus on.

Meghan Smallwood: 15:21

I think it goes back to that advocacy piece, too. I know it's so hard, I think we see with parents there, they always have somebody in the school system to lean on, and to help them through. And then at 21, you know, for those who are going out into adult agencies, it's like a cliff, just falling off the cliff.

Liz Burley: 15:38

It is, it is. And that's why sometimes we really have to, you know, we're not parents from doing everything for them, and trying to show that they're really pushing it. I mean, in school, we could sit there and complete applications, but does a guidance counselor complete college applications for students. It's a student and a parent responsibility to know what colleges they want to apply to what financial aid they would need to do filling out a financial aid application, you know, so I try to make sure parents understand that this is the same comparison. You know, because you had an IEP doesn't mean that we are doing everything for you, it's still your responsibility to see that some of these things get done, we can guide you and lead you along the way. But parents have to understand that the power that they have, none of these programs would be put in place without the parents, its parents that used to get students into public schools have disabilities, parents got the laws came.

Meghan Smallwood: 16:38

And I remember I had one parent told me once that he, he's going to be the constant in his son's life. So he has to know everything that's going on. And he has to know who the coordinator is for this agency and who the person is for that. And it can be frustrating when you feel like it's working in silos, but unfortunately, that they have to know it all.

Liz Burley: 16:57

Absolutely. You know, and it's hard. And it's a different role. And, you know, parents feel, you know, they're trying to push the other kids out of the house to be as independent that they're not going to have to shout at them. But some of our some of them come back home to with F APs. times we have to So guide them as Well. Yeah, but you are the constant, you are the most important part of your child's life. They do need you as the advocate, to continue on with all of that fighting that you're going to need to do. As I tell parents, you know, keep a notebook of what what people you talk to you, anytime you call an agency, or you're talking to somebody, get a name, a log, you know, I talked to SSI this day, I talked to dee da this tech, who did I speak to? Who was the person said, you can refer back to that person? Well, Mrs. Jones told me this now, Mrs. Smith, you're telling me this? Which is it? Somebody correct me here? So why am I getting two different answers from the same agency? So it's about knowing that and being able to get to do that, and it becomes a second job?

Meghan Smallwood: 18:08

Yeah, that's the worst. I think that's the worst fear or the overwhelming fear. You know, it's I already have a job. Now, I've got to worry about all this.

Liz Burley: 18:15

It's also important for parents and to surround themselves with support groups. Yes, no, because parents learn the most from other parents. What works for you, what didn't work for you? It's, it's sad, because, you know, I lived through the time and taught through the time where parents were desperate for help, you know, where they needed this, their young adult to leave that leave the house, and they needed to get them into some residential services. Because waiting list was so long they couldn't. So what they did is they got respite care, and then refuse to pick up the young adult from respite care. And it was heartbreaking on both sides. But the parents were that desperate that they decided that that was going to be their best move, because then young adult was in crisis, and they had to play some. So I don't want to see families have to go through that I want them to be able to, to follow through to see what they want for their child. Is everything gonna work out perfectly? No, it's not. I have to make some changes sometimes. Yeah, you will. Okay, whether it's changing an agency changing a residential care program, whatever it is, you're gonna have to make some changes sometimes. Just like we make changes in our lives, we may change jobs or change locations or move our homes. You know, we all make changes and sometimes you have to do that for young adults. You know, but getting parents to understand that Okay, when you retire, you may not move to Florida and still get the same services. These services are here for the state of Maryland. So if you're go down from Rehoboth Beach and you want to live there, fine, but you've had to have apartment on Maryland side, so that you have a residency in Maryland for your young adult to get this services. It's important to understand those ins and outs Have a lot of that legality, where those services are here, I know, we're very lucky, because we do have a lot of services here. And he's may not have as many, no matter how active you are, but I would say get with a support group, you know, the ARC of Maryland is wonderful. Each county has, are more. So they're a very large advocacy group, that fight for our young adults and people with disabilities, they have, you know, distribution. So, some key points of the parents really do need to come active and understand all of those ins and outs of the legal system as well.

Meghan Smallwood: 20:38

I think social media has really helped with that, too, that the they're able to find the other parents out there to connect with. And I know, some providers are even popped up in that way, because of parents have gotten together and said this, we want something different. And they work to create it.

Patrick Cadigan: 20:55

We belong to a couple of different Facebook groups that, where the parents are advocating for each other, talking through challenges that they're having. And that has been...there's no shortage of discussion, and need for a sharing of information.

Liz Burley: 21:15

And that's even when your child is younger, on the IEP and understanding the IEP because, I mean, it's long and drawn out. While we used to hate printing them out, right? 40 pages, or so of all the stuff. But knowing what the key points are? What are the most important parts? Where do you want to see your child? What most important, scary part is to is, is the parents understanding what the needs are, you know, what an agency is looking for in that transition piece. I was in a meeting with a family and the mother was so worried about toilet training. You know, my child needs to be toilet trained, they won't get into an adult program if they're not toilet trained. I said, Well, who told you that? You know, that is not a criteria for many adult programs, I say we have many people that are not toilet trained? Well, they have to be able to write their name. No, they don't have to be able to write their name. We have been very involved children that do not have use of their hands. And to do that, you know, but that doesn't mean that they can't get into a program. So it's about knowing where your child is, yes? Is Toilet, toilet training important? It is if it can be cheat, it may not be able to be achieved by everybody. So knowing what what are the supports that you're going to use for that.

Meghan Smallwood: 22:40

And what kind of steps can you take to get to the most independent level that they can achieve for toileting training. So if they can stand for a change instead of lay down, that's perfect, but...

Liz Burley: 22:51

Or they can signal you some way to know that they need to be changed. So whatever it is, how are they communicating? And I think it's also very, very important for parents to be able to share the knowledge of the young adult with other people. How is somebody else going to know my child, we as parents, sometimes things we are the end all and beall to our kids, is nobody that's going to be a better parent than we are? And it's nice to think that you know, and we all want to pat ourselves on the back saying, Yeah, I did a hell of a job raising my kids, you know, or, you know, I'm the only one that can take care of his needs. You know, but we have to understand that we're not always going to be there. And what happens when we're not there? How do we make our young adult be as independent as possible, if we're not there, who's going to take over my role? You know, because if we think we're the end all and be all to everything for our kid, then we're being pretty selfish for ourselves, because then we're not giving our kid an expansive support system. You know, and that is what is crucial, is about fights not knowing everything. It's about knowing where to go to look for the information.

Patrick Cadigan: 24:07

So what we're going to do is pause there in our conversation with Liz, but not to worry, because there is still lots more to that conversation, for sure. Before we let you go, we wanted to share out our Well That's Helpful segment with a new resource. Now, this week, we're highlighting the Maryland Department of Education's webpage around Specially Designed Instruction & Transition Planning. Now, this is a web page that offers overviews of information about the transition process; it includes information about infants and toddler programs, family support services, which includes the autism waiver, and a lot more. Now, this page is worth its weight in gold for its Publications page link which takes you to a plethora of downloadable resources that are valuable for families that live in the state of Maryland and have children with disabilities. So we think it's gonna be really helpful. So you will find that link to that page in our show notes.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:07

And speaking of our show notes, you can follow this information and other conversations in the show notes. Please, please, please like, follow and share out our podcasts. We want to reach as many people as possible. Also, check out our YouTube channel, we have videos of all our conversations, including doing some of the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. We've created playlists that cover guardianship, the alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts, and still more to come. So be sure to subscribe there as well. And finally, check out our website which is chockfull of information around the transition process. You'll find our contact information there, too. So make sure to go to www.postsecondarytransition.com

Patrick Cadigan: 25:52

But for now, I think we're done.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:55

I think so. I think that was plenty.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:58

All right. Well, good deal. We will catch up with everyone later.

Meghan Smallwood: 26:01

Thanks, everyone.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:02

Bye bye.