Meghan Smallwood: 0:20

Welcome back. We're here again for the Post Secondary Transition podcast where we like to have conversations around the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I'm one of the hosts. My name is Meghan Smallwood, and I'm a public school transition coordinator. And with me is

Patrick Cadigan: 0:38

Patrick Cadigan. I'm a public school special education teacher.

Meghan Smallwood: 0:41

Awesome. And before we begin our conversation, we'd like to give our listeners a definition of what we're really talking about when we say Post Secondary Transition, it really just focuses between ages 14 through 21, and really helps answer that question of what do you want for your child after they leave school? We're looking to help answer that question by asking parents to really think long term, think of the milestones ahead of you. Think of the research the resources, and ultimately the goals that you have?

Patrick Cadigan: 1:08

And how do we define long term? Well ask yourself the question, what do you want for your child to be doing after the school bus stops coming, that can be different for everybody as it's a completely individualized experience. So along with that, along with that individuality can come from loneliness, and in some cases, a sense of isolation, it really can be or really is a unique experience. But there are other families who are going through this probably at the same time you are, right.

Meghan Smallwood: 1:36

And along that journey, there are milestones that you are going to need to focus on. And some of those are built around timeframes. But others can be at your own timeframe, whenever you're comfortable and ready to tackle them. Using your child's school experiences will really help while you're doing that research for transition. And using the resources at your disposal, such as your school transition specialist, and other teachers is imperative. It is a lot of information, we recognize that and there's a lot to consider. And in many cases, the answers will not always immediately present themselves. And there might be some give and take, there will be things that you do that might not have the desired outcome, and trying to do all that at once can really feel consuming. So we're here hoping to help clear away some of that fog.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:21

And along the lines of clearing away some of that fog. Let's, let's get into what we're going to be doing this week. So we are back. For the last several weeks, we have been doing one 101-style conversations, which is to say like an introduction to the post secondary transition process, right. This is for families who have little to no experience with it. So this week, we thought we would drill down even further, right. Today we're going to conversate about work programs, but not just any work programs, these are going to be work programs that we're Meghan and I both work in the county that we work in, which is a Howard County in the state of Maryland. Now, of course, we recognize that each school system will do something different. So this is by no means intended to be comprehensive, just simply an overview of the programs that we typically see and the programs that we typically work with. Now, our listeners will no doubt have very different offerings or experiences around this, so we are looking to open up the conversation. We know that different counties, different states do different things. So please con... use our contact page, get in touch with us, let us know what you guys are doing. We have actually already reached out to some of the surrounding areas with us. We're really looking to hopefully open up this conversation; so could be fun! So, with that being said, Meghan has way more experience with this stuff than I do. So I'm going to go ahead. And when I say that I am the surrogate in this conversation, that this time, it's really, really true, because I really do not have a whole lot of experience with this. So Meghan, as always, why don't we start at the beginning in the sense that when we say school-based work programs, if you were going to give a definition to that, what would that definition be for families?

Meghan Smallwood: 4:20

So I think the school-based work programs really just focuses on all those experiences that are offered to give the students those pre vocational opportunities to practice things that they will use and hopefully apply after they leave the school system and kind of tagging along with what you were saying, you know, although this is specific to our county, I think that hopefully the things that we talk about can really help you brainstorm even further to situations that might work for your own child, whether it be now or after 21 Like we've had discussions about self directed services I think a lot of these things can really help you think out of the box, and hey, maybe I could help, you know, get that in place for my child. So just just to keep that in mind.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:10

So let's, let's, let's start the conversation, let's drill down, where does it all begin with work opportunities?

Meghan Smallwood: 5:16

So usually it begins freshman year in our high schools. And even before that, I should say, in the middle school, depending on the school, depending on the student, there might be opportunities within building. But in high school, we like to get those freshmen and, you know, underclassmen really used to some of those basic pre vocational skills in the school building that they can, you know, build off of, and we try to give them different jobs, to see where their strengths and their weaknesses really lie along with what they like, and they don't like it, because it's just good data overall, to start planning for the future. I know in the schools I've been, we have quite a variety of in schoolwork, examples and situations, but some to name a few could be laminating shredding, that's a huge one. We've sharpened pencils for the testing administrator when they have you know, the PSAT coming up and other tests in the spring. And a lot of times, it'll come down to us putting this out to the school staff asking, Hey, who, who's got our need, what can we help you with and really collaborating with the teachers to come up with how we can help them best, we will help in the front office. With some other tasks such as delivering mail to different teachers around the building, we will fill the copy machines with paper, the secretaries love that because they don't have to run around the building, then that's something we can do. We have changed bulletin boards around the building for the seasons, holidays, we have a connection with our food and nutrition teacher. And we will often wash the towels for her after they've done some of their cooking and fold them for her die cutting to go along with those bulletin boards. And then in our school, we've done a monthly snack cart, which I know is popular amongst all of the schools in our school system, whether it be a snack cart, or a coffee cart, but our students are responsible for taking a trip out in the community to purchase the items. And then we stock a cart. And we will go around once a month and offer to our staff. And you know, we gather money for the purchases, and we use it to do something fun for the students at the end of the year. So those are just a sampling of some things. And we have teachers who really think out of the box and make connections to with the community to see what kind of jobs we can help not only for the teachers in our buildings, but for some of our businesses that we can bring to do in the building with the students. And then you know, the transition teacher might be the one returning it to the business after it's done. But it's a nice connection. And it's comes full circle for the students to see that the job that they're practicing, does help somebody else out in the community that they live in.

Patrick Cadigan: 8:13

Now, one thing, as I'm hearing you talk about all of this, Meghan and I wanted to be a little bit more specific in this case. Now, as I'm hearing about some of these activities, right, these, these these schoolwork examples: laminating shredding, working in the front office. Now, are we talking, are is this going to be our diploma-bound students who are doing this these activities? Are these going to be more like our non-traditional students, our students who are not going to be receiving a high school diploma. Or is it both? We want to be able to frame the conversation around that, because just so I can understand in my own brain, you know, what's the difference between the two.

Meghan Smallwood: 8:49

Yeah, no, good question. This, it's totally individualized, but for the most part, I'm talking about those students who are on the certificate track, and in our school participate in the life skills classroom. So they have the flexibility in their day and their schedule to build these activities in.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:10

Got it, got it. All right. So how does it build on from there? Do, do they have opportunities to actually I mean, and you kind of already mentioned this, but they have opportunities to actually go out into the community to practice these skills?

Meghan Smallwood: 9:27

Oh, yeah. So again, talking about the students on the certificate track, um, and I know I mentioned this about our snack cart. We do a lot of the community based instruction trips to tie back to those vocational skills, and also tying those career clusters that we like to have lessons on but we will take them out to places in the community such as the store we went to BJ's when we were shopping for our coffee cart. We also have gone to the MVA in order to help help the students get their ID cards. And that was a very, you know, functional trip, because we wanted to make sure that they have that. And a lot of them have objectives on their IEP about, you know, producing their ID to someone when asked. So that was, that was a great experience. We've done travel training and have them practice using the the transit system in Howard County. And then, you know, following along on the app to follow the route for the train, and just a variety. And again, it depends on the school, it depends on the group of students. But, you know, there's just so many opportunities that we try to get them out in the community as much as we can. But on the vocational side, there is a program for our students on the certificate track called Career and Community exploration, or CCE, where students go and work in small groups under the supervision of a teacher and a paraeducator. Typically, we start this conversation around sophomore year for students. And we like the students to be they're 16 years old, or a junior in high school, when they begin again, it's totally individualized, it comes down to the IEP team decision about what's best and what the schedule works for the student. But it gives the students an opportunity to explore a variety of careers and workplaces and really see them in, you know, in real life. So we have quite a plethora of businesses in the community that they can volunteer at, and including the grocery store, a warehouse, they have opportunities that involve horticulture, animal care, farms, there's just so many to name, but we try to match their experiences, what the interests that we've seen and the strengths that they've shown us from their in school opportunities, and really putting them in those situations. Give us that hard evidence to tell parents, hey, they really liked working with animals, that's definitely something that you might want to consider down the road.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:00

It's funny, though, to hear you talk about going to the MVA and getting a, getting an ID because all I know that from our Facebook feed, because we have our own Facebook page, up popped this ad that was essentially talk, now I don't know about anywhere else, but we here in the state of Maryland, you can actually use your phone to hold your identification card. And so it was talking about that. And they were saying and you could not only can you do it from your phone, but if you know by, by default, then you can also do it from your watch.

Meghan Smallwood: 12:35

Ah, that's right.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:37

Yeah, so I thought that that was really interesting.

Meghan Smallwood: 12:40

Very cool!

Patrick Cadigan: 12:50

Are there other work programs after CCE?

Meghan Smallwood: 12:53

Yeah. So what CCE like I mentioned that the students are grouped in a small group of students, usually four to five with a teacher and a paraeducator. But there are opportunities for students who show evidence of independence at the worksite to go to individual sites as well.

Patrick Cadigan: 13:13

And then how is it determined that the student can move to another level quote/unquote.

Meghan Smallwood: 13:21

So that next step, like I said, with the independence piece, with our county, it would be work study. One of the students in CCE is the teacher or the parent educators that are working with them, the student notice, like they they're really showing a lot of independents as they work, I think they might be ready to venture off into something, you know, more independent, then they would call for the transition teacher to come and observe the student and kind of get a feel for their thoughts. We, when we put a student into work study, the student is not with school staff all of the time, they receive some initial and periodic job coaching from the transition teacher. But then the expectation is while they're at that worksite, that they will be reporting to the employer or the manager for the worksite. And, you know, answering to them and getting their work tasks from them. So we try to match the student's interests and strengths with that worksite for work study, but it's completely individualized. And the transition teachers, the one who's coordinating it, and checking in there documenting those visits, and they're sharing the history with the school teams, but they're also checking in with the employer weekly to see is there any concerns, do you have any questions? Is there any area that the student really needs to work on with their independence, to make sure that they're performing up to standards?

Patrick Cadigan: 14:48

And what about within the school building itself? Are there classes that can also explore career areas that the students can take advantage of?

Meghan Smallwood: 14:57

Yeah, and so I should also mention when when I was talking remote work study that was also a situation for students who are on that certificate track. Now when I talk about this next class, exploring careers and in the building, we have something called the Career and Research Development class or CRD. Now, that can be both for both students that are on the diploma track, and also on the certificate track. For those that are earning a diploma, it is one of our graduation pathways. And it really introduces the students to the exploration of career interests and goal setting, communication, financial literacy, and just overall navigating the challenges of the world of work. What I liked about it for our students on the certificate track that it gives them an opportunity to really work on creating resumes, which oftentimes might be a goal on their IEP for us. They can research different employment opportunities, we can work on filling out job applications. So, CRD class really gives a nice variety of that exposure to different work experiences and career exploration. So aside from CRD within our county, we also offer some career academies. And it offers our high school students with similar interests a unique opportunity to really prepare for college and entry level employment in certain career areas. These are for our students with diplomas. But again, individualized basis, you know, a discussion with the IEP team for a student who might be interested in is on the certificate track. We have had students participate in it before, but it really didn't needs to be discussion about you know why it would be a good fit. Our Career Academy programs are designed to really prepare those high school students for the college and career readiness, and to basically meet the demands of the 21st century global economy. We have a ever growing list of career academies. But to name a few we've got aerospace engineering, animation and interactive media that's really popular. There's architecture, construction, Automotive Technology, cybersecurity, graphic design, HVAC, and health in the health professions. So, you know, when I meet with students, and they express an interest, let's say in nursing, automatically from freshman year, I'm trying to give them information on sessions about our Career Academy so that they are aware of them from day one, and they can talk with their guidance counselor about the possibility of fitting it in their schedule as they become an upperclassman. So it's really good opportunities for the students to get a feel for it before they actually leave us and go out into college, or the work world.

Patrick Cadigan: 18:04

So and then that would then make me think next about like, do we have apprenticeships?

Meghan Smallwood: 18:11

Yes. Again, also evergrowing. And these are our students on the diploma track. And it's actually one of our graduation pathways for our seniors who are interested in employment and further education, based on their career pathway and a lot of the stem industries. Our county has really expanded their apprenticeship opportunities over the last few years, but I know they have a number of them with construction companies, environment, agricultural natural resources, they have some human resources, information technology and the automotive field.

Patrick Cadigan: 18:50

So when you're talking about like I'm hearing construction and human resources, infotech, I would imagine that there has to be some criteria that the students have to meet, right?

Meghan Smallwood: 19:00

Oh, yes. You know, they have to make sure that the majority of their graduation requirements are completed. And this is for their senior year again, because they are expected to work a minimum of 450 hours for the year, which kind of equates to 20 hours a week. They also along with their apprenticeship complete a year of the related classroom instruction. And it all has to be done before they graduate. They are expected to adhere to the employers policies because they're working for an employer. And I went to a session back in the fall where they were celebrating some of our students in the apprenticeship. And the employer was just so excited to have them there and you know, just couldn't be more thrilled than the progress they've made. And ultimately, they would like to hire them when they graduate. So they're basically training the students to be their new employees. So it's a win win for everybody. And they also want to The biggest things, at least for our county is because they're the students are reporting directly to the employer. And it could be at different hours of the day, the you know, they could be working early, they could be working, you know, in the afternoon after classes, our students are expected to provide their own transportation.

Patrick Cadigan: 20:17

What about for our friends who are on the certificate track? What if, what if they're showing like independence in their in the work that they are doing? Are there other opportunities that they can explore also?

Meghan Smallwood: 20:29

right, so we we are not leaving our certificate students out at all. There are opportunities for those who have shown independence, you know, have maybe gone through work study, again, totally individualized. There are so many different pathways that can be done by our students. But let's say students been in work setting and shown independence, we have a community based post high school program located at our community college campus, that are designed for the students on the certificate track with the mild to moderate disabilities, and are successful in that least restrictive environment. They have a curriculum that they follow, which includes travel training, a lot of that financial literacy, such as banking, budgeting shopping, because they actually will go out and do these things, career vocational skills, self advocacy and self determination and personal management skills. So it's really the next step after high school before they leave our school system.

Patrick Cadigan: 21:28

So, so, then what are what are they looking for then in potential students that are interested in that? Like, what, what's the criteria for them?

Meghan Smallwood: 21:36

So these are the last years of public school. So we like to have our students on their certificate track, at least have four years in their high school. And then I find it important as a transition teacher to kind of back map with parents from the exit year, to see when it would best align with their schedule. But we typically would say the last couple of years if, at the very most,

Patrick Cadigan: 21:59

Meghan real quick now, because when you say backmap, what do you mean when you say backmap?

Meghan Smallwood: 22:04

So I like to sit with parents. And let's look at the exit year, let's say a student's exit years 2027. That's when they're leaving the school system because the students 21 years old. I like to backmap by the school years with the students. So to doubt the school year of 2026 to 2027. What will that student be doing? What program do you want him, what's your goal? I have a student, for example, who we talked about Project SEARCH, you know, we would like for him to go to Project SEARCH. So that would be his last year of school, and I'll get to what Project SEARCH is. That is our goal for the last year. So before that, he's got to show independence. So we envision community connections, before that we envision a work study, before that we envision CCE. So it's just mapping out from the years to see when it would fit in his schedule and where we are now and when he needs to start really getting involved in that community experience in the work programs.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:04

So it's a it's like a logical progression forward, so to speak.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:07

Yes, and it just helps put the big picture in perspective.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:10

Got it.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:10

Because you know, 2027 might sound so far away. But in reality, when you actually put it on paper to see all these programs and how it aligns, it sneaks up on you.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:19

So of course, I heard you mentioned Project SEARCH. And I know that you were going to talk about that. But Project SEARCH that is not unique to our county, right like..?

Meghan Smallwood: 23:26

it's not we I know that there are other counties in Maryland and other counties in the country that have it.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:31

too. So what is Project SEARCH?

Meghan Smallwood: 23:34

So Project SEARCH is a partnership, at least in our county, with the government with our school system, with the ARC with the Autism Society and with DORS, the Division of Rehabilitation Services. This is not specific to our students on the certificate track, we have had students who earned a diploma also participate in Project SEARCH. It is just that last year before a student leaves the school system or exits, and that's when they would be eligible for it. In our program, they have to be eligible for both DDA and DORS at the vocational rehabilitation, or VR, service level. But within the program, the students who are considered interns complete three 10-week unpaid internships within the different government departments. The goal of the program is competitive integrated employment. So compared to let's say, community connections, the expectation is that these students are working longer hours for the day. That's why there's like a natural progression, you know, CCE they work for an hour and a half maybe work study might be a little longer Community Connections might be a little longer Project SEARCH will be the longest amount within our school system programs. It's usually a small class of students, and they are under the supervision of their mentors from the government. So again, kind of like work study, they are reporting to someone You know, that is their manager or employer, not a school staff. And they're getting feedback from them on their work performance, because they're doing real world tasks here. So they need to the performance needs to be up to par.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:14

And then when you when I'm hearing you say, work study, so is there, is there a curriculum for this?

Meghan Smallwood: 25:19

Yes. So their curriculum, which they get an hour of classroom instruction the day before they go out to work, and it focuses all on employability skills. So, you know, again, that's the big transition from when they were in the high school building. It's all functional, you know, the goal is for them to be ready when they leave us at 21. And that's we want the functional meaningful life skills piece.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:43

Is the classroom actually, like out there, like out in the in the community or like in the government building, if that's what they were doing?

Meghan Smallwood: 25:49

Right. So it's not, again, not in the school system. Although it's still part of the school system. It's not located in high school, it's it for our Project SEARCH is located in a government building. So that's where they would report every day.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:01

And then I heard you talk about internships, you want to talk a little bit about like, what, how does that work?

Meghan Smallwood: 26:06

Yeah, so again, long, longer amounts of work time. So with our Project SEARCH, they're expected to work at least four hours a day, and they're working on marketable transferable skills. So they get those three different internships. So they might have one in administrative or clerical tasks. Another one could be building or groundskeeping. We have custodial tasks. I know, we have students who work in a daycare. So there's a whole slew of different opportunities.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:36

And then do they do these, do these participants, do they have a job coach or something like that?

Meghan Smallwood: 26:41

So the job coach will consult with their mentors, kind of like how the transition teacher was there just checking in on them, giving some expertise to the mentors from the government about the accommodations that they might need or adaptations, and just providing any of the on the job coaching with areas that might need a little extra help.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:02

I have a sneaking suspicion that there's probably going to be a whole bunch of links in our show notes to all of this information.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:07

Probably, huh.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:17

So like last time, we're going to do another segue, we're gonna go into Well, That's Helpful. And that is a resource that we have found that either has been recommended to us or that we want to recommend out that we think that families will find useful last week, I gave out my recommendation, Meghan, this week at you, what do you got for us?

Meghan Smallwood: 27:41

Awesome. Well, this resource, we've actually had workshops with them, and they've been super helpful. The Parents Place of Maryland, and their website is www.ppmd.org. They cover a whole bunch of different areas. But specifically for transition, they have a variety of topics resources for the transition topic, if you go to their website under the resources tab, and on the side they have where you can check transition, you'll see a large number of documents, both in English and in Spanish. So they provided webinars and fact sheets for a variety of transition topics such as SSI, supported decision making, youth and employment, self directed services, think college and health care transition, which was a workshop that they had provided for us for a few years, too. So I definitely recommend checking out the Parents Place of Maryland.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:37

And as usual, there is going to be a link in our show notes to that resource. Well, and I think that that'll bring the current conversation that we're going to have to an end. Let me think, what do we have on the books for our next episode? If all things work out, we're doing an interview, aren't we?

Meghan Smallwood: 28:56

Yeah, so I'm excited for that one.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:57

We're going to talk with a local company called Barrier Free. We reached out to them we recently were at the Carroll County transition resource fair. And we hooked up with them and we had a nice conversation with them. And they were willing to come on and discuss with us who they are and what they do. And it's just such a neat, neat program. And I'm really looking forward to that discussion. But before we do have that discussion, please follow the information from this and other conversations that we've had in our show notes, chock full of resources, chock full of information chock full of links, they're all there. Next, like follow and share out our podcast so that other families can benefit from all the conversations that we're having. In addition to that, you can check out our YouTube channel. We have videos of all the conversations that we've had up until this point, including doing some of the legwork for you guys by curating videos of topics that revolve around the transition process. So we have videos on guardianship, alternatives to guardianship, ABLE accounts and lots, lots more. And we're continuing to add as we find videos. And eventually we're going to get around to doing some more of our own and, you know, keeping them a little bit more unique, but for right now... So finally, check out our website, which is chock full of information around the transition process. You can also find our contact information there. So please go to www.postsecondarytransition.com Check out the site, check out the resources that we have available for you. And if there's something that you're not seeing, reach out, let us know and we will work like heck to get it out there. All right. Another one in the bag, Ms. Meghan. Good deal.

Meghan Smallwood: 30:42

Awesome.

Patrick Cadigan: 30:43

So I'm looking forward to that next interview. But until we get there, we will see everyone later.

Meghan Smallwood: 30:49

All right. Thanks, everyone.