Patrick Cadigan: 0:20

All right, I have hit the record button once again, I could decide to change my mind later on. But I don't think that I will. Hello, my name is Patrick Cadigan. I am one of the hosts for post secondary transition or P to transition podcast. And I do have a co host and who would that be?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:37

And I am Meghan Smallwood, and I am the co host. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for coming back.

Patrick Cadigan: 0:44

All right. So we this is going to be a another one. In our last episode, we talked about how we, after we got some user feedback, we decided that we were going to start doing some 101 style podcasts, which is to say that we were going to go back to the basics. And one of the discussions that we had is we're looking at it like a ladder, right? So we're starting at the bottom, and we are working our way up. So in this case, in this particular episode, we're going to be talking about timelines, timelines from the ages of 14 through 21. But before we even get into all that fun this, we typically have a definition for what Post Secondary Transition is Meghan? What is that definition?

Meghan Smallwood: 1:33

Post Secondary Transition, it really focuses between ages 14 through 21, and really helps answer that question of what do you want for your child after they leave school? We're looking to help answer that question, by asking you parents to think long term, the milestones ahead of you the research the resources, the goals you have.

Patrick Cadigan: 1:55

And how do we define long term? Well, what do you want your child to be doing after the school bus stops coming? Right, which is different for everybody, it is a completely individualized experience. And along with that, individuality can come loneliness. And in some cases, a sense of isolation, it really is a unique experience. But there are other families who are going through this probably at the same time you are.

Meghan Smallwood: 2:19

And along that journey, there's milestones that you need to focus on. Some of those are built around timeframes. Others can be at your own timeframe, when you're comfortable and ready. But using your child's school experiences will really help while doing the research. Using the resources at your disposal, such as your school Transition Specialists and other teachers is also imperative. It's a lot of information, there's a lot to consider. And in many cases, the answers will not always immediately present themselves, there might be some give and take. And there will be things that you do that might not have the desired outcome. Trying to do all of it at once can really feel consuming. So we're here hoping to help clear away some of that fog.

Patrick Cadigan: 3:03

All right, and in line with clearing away some of that fog. Let's start with those timelines. Right, starting from the age of 14, let's, I think we need to remind parents that we have a transition timeline, right? Do you want to talk was created by the school system? Do you want to talk about that?

Meghan Smallwood: 3:33

Absolutely. So there is a transition timeline that's created by Howard County. And it covers ages 14 to 21, with a lot of little bullet points that we're going to discuss here now. But you can have that at your disposal from either our website, the or your transition specialist or the school. It's available all over. And one of the things that we can do is if you want to refer back to the show notes, we're going to have a link to each one of those. And that could be something helpful that you use later on. All right, so So I know that we've talked about it before, but I do think that it bears repeating again, Megan, when does transition start. So in Maryland, transition pages begin appearing on an IEP for a student the year they turn 14. In middle school, you'll have a case manager who will start conducting those transition interviews and completing the pages to kind of begin that roadmap for the high school as they travel up there. Once you begin high school, you have a transition specialist that's assigned to your school, who's going to be there as a resource to help you with transition. So your child is never too young for you to start thinking about transition. And we really encourage and recommend parents to start attending those transition fairs and events during that middle school timeframe. There's just so much information. It's really good to start hearing it early. You can begin at Transition binder for all those resources at home. And if you know other parents who might be going through the process, just start talking to them and asking questions. I know that many parents have said the Howard County Autism Society is a great resource to find other parents who are going through the transition process. And I know there's numerous Facebook groups dedicated to transit transition services in Maryland and Howard County, too.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:22

Yeah, we're actually part of more than a few of those. So and we're pushing the information as we get it out within those groups as well. So... Yeah, we're kind of bouncing all over the place, so to speak. So looking at it from the perspective of a parent, Megan, what, if I was a parent, what else should I be doing at the age of 14.

Meghan Smallwood: 5:56

So aside from seeing these transition pages on an IEP, really encourage your child to get involved in school, whether it be in the clubs, they offer, sports, any activities. I know, the high schools have allied sports now they have bowling, softball, soccer, golf, I mean, that's a great way for them to just get out of the classroom and do something fun, Rec and leisure. Best Buddies is also very big, and they are matched up with a general education peer, well, they can meet outside of the class and do some things outside of the school building even. So there's just lots of opportunities. It doesn't have to be just those there can be something if there's an area of interest, if if your child has an interest in art, ask about an art club, see if there's different them activities that align with something they've shown interest in as well. The other thing I was going to mention too, is any kinds of chores that they could possibly help with at home will really reinforce when they start working on those skills in school, whether it be in a work program, or in building, which I'll discuss a little bit more later. Having them help out with things like emptying the dishwasher, putting their laundry away, just get that variety going. So they're exposed to it. It's it's really great practice for them.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:14

And as I'm hearing you talk about all this stuff, Meghan a have to admit that again, and thinking of this in terms of apparent when you're talking about getting involved in clubs and sports and activities, that is not necessarily something that I'm thinking of when I am thinking about transition. So why is that important? Like what's the what's the draw to these types of activities.

Meghan Smallwood: 7:38

Ultimately, when they leave the school system, you want them to be an active participant in member of the community, which means you want them to be able to socialize with people, aside from their teachers every day, or mom and dad. So just giving them that opportunity to really be around a variety of other people, and including their peers, you know, it's so important for them to practice those soft skills that we really work towards, when they go into some of our work programs, or, you know, whatever other classes they go into, they need to have those skills to be able to, they need to be able to start a conversation or carry on a conversation, even, you know, eye contact, just being able to be around others. It's just a great opportunity for everybody involved. So I highly recommend it. And honestly, to get involved with these different activities and sports, it really does not matter what the disability may be, you can be higher function, you can be low functioning, we have students involved in all of these different activities from all different ability levels. I know that there are students that are nonverbal, who are matched up with peers, for Best Buddies, and they've really developed some great relationships with their buddy. I know students who are in wheelchairs, who are participating in allied sports, with the help of their peers. So it does not matter what level of ability and what disability the child or student has, they can still participate. And it's individualized. And that's the great thing about it, we can make it work for everybody so that everyone can get involved and have the experience.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:20

So one of the other things of course, as we're talking around the age of 14, I've heard it because we've had discussions with families in the past. Do we need to bring up DORS? Like, how do we...

Meghan Smallwood: 9:32

Yeah, I think I think DORS is definitely a good resource for people to be aware of. So DORS, it stands for Division of Rehabilitation Services, and at age 14 any student with a documented disability can be referred for pre-employment transition services, also known as PRE-ETS. You might hear the transition specialist talk about PRE-ETS services through DORS. A referral for DORS is pretty easy. There's a link, which we have available on our website that can be completed, it takes about five minutes. And then it's just a matter of being on the lookout for some correspondence, usually a letter in the mail from them, and requesting you and the student to set up an appointment with them. At that initial intake appointment, the counselor from DORS can listen to what your interest is, what your child's interest is, if they want to work if they need some self advocacy practice, just basically what their goal is, and the doors counselor would be able to tell you what they're able to provide your child's for services. Then another big thing to think about at age 14, if it hasn't been done already, is an application for the developmental disabilities, administration, or DDA, it's okay if you have completed it before age 18. And sometimes when you're matched up with different agencies or other resources, they'll recommend that you complete it. But if you have an age 14 is the great time to do it. Because we suggest you getting your child's name out there on their lists. So when they exited 21, there top of the list recognized as needing services with those other transitioning youth at that time, we are going to do a whole podcast on DDA because it's a lot of information and we recognize that it can be overwhelming Be on the lookout for that in the future, but just know DDA application 14.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:42

Yeah, needless to say DORS and DDA come up more more often times than not when we're discussing about transition. But so that was essentially the age of 14, right? So now, what should what should families be doing around the ages of 15? Through like 17.

Meghan Smallwood: 12:01

So honestly, the 15 - 17 age range, you can kind of take a little break, kind of breathe. I know, it doesn't feel like that. And I've talked to many parents who were like, Okay, what do I do? What do I do now? There's no big milestones until you get to 18 again, but at that point, it's the perfect time to really focus on that research, go to those transition fairs, listen to this podcast, listen to other podcasts, just start gathering your information from different sessions and workshops. And like I said, before talking to other parents who are going through the process, just start preparing, I think it's great, because you're not under the pressure of my child as exiting this year or next year, I need to figure it all out. Now you have the time to recognize that it's okay to just breathe and gather the information. on the school side, I would suggest to start considering some of the work programs through the school system. If your child is on the certificate track, once a child typically, if your child turns 16 starts to become a junior, the IEP team may have a conversation if they feel like they're ready to become a part of the Career and Community Exploration program, or CCE, which is the work program that a lot of our students in high schools attend. And it's a half day program, they typically leave around fourth period, and have transportation to a hub where they go and get on a variety of different buses to a variety of work sites, all in a group. So there will be a teacher and a paraeducator with a group of maybe four or five students depending on the worksite depending on the students. And it's their first introduction to work outside of the school building. Now before that, most we would expect most students are practicing those work skills within the building. And that might start at age 14, maybe 15. But we'd like to give them that experience before they actually venture out into the community. And then CCE is that first experience out in the community, and they really get to explore a variety of different worksites different career options. All the while the teachers are collecting data to see how independently they're working, where their strengths lie, where they might need some extra help. And if they feel that a student is really showing that independence, that's when they might ask the transition specialist who is also the work study coordinator to come and observe the student and lay eyes on them to see if they feel like they have met the qualifications for work study. When a student goes into work study, they are going to a worksite where there will no longer be that group with them. It is just them and they are reporting to the employer at the worksite. Now the transition specialist or the work study coordinator will provide that job coaching initially for the first week or two And then they will feed their supports, with the hopes that the student has learned their tasks and their routines and will be reporting to their manager. There'll be checking in with the manager, but the expectation is that the student is independent and able to work on his own, without that group around them. And when we see that independence, and we see them excelling at work study, there might be the conversation about the Community Connections program, which is also a Howard County School System Program. But it is based on the Howard Community College, we usually recommend after the student has had four years in their high school, and we try to back map to take a look at the student. And when they would be exiting, we ultimately don't want them to spend too long at the Community Connections program, because two years is usually like a community college, you know, you two years at a program, and then you're ready to move on. So it's very individualized and the IEP team can really look at it together. But if they are excelling at work study, they're showing independence, the Community Connections program may be a good fit for them. And that is a program that the transition specialist can help you learn more information about. And you can set up a tour to go in see the program and talk to the teacher over there. The expectation is that they will be able to work for longer amounts of time at community connections than they were at work study. And definitely from CCE, it's always building upon that work time and that they're able to work longer amounts of time independently. And then the final work program for our students on the certificate track is Project SEARCH. A Project SEARCH is an internship. And it's an application process that can be done. And they typically have 12 students enrolled in the program. They have internships with the Howard County government and the students typically rotate through three of those within the year that they're in the program. Project SEARCH is for students who are in their last year in the school system, with the expectation that they will exit, they will be going on to the ark. And students involved in this program have to be doors eligible and DDA eligible. So again, important to make sure you get those applications in and referrals to doors in a timely fashion, because you don't want to have your application held up for Project SEARCH because you didn't complete that end of things.

Patrick Cadigan: 17:32

And there is an information page on our website. And there will be a link to that in the show notes so that if you ever wanted to go back and you wanted to look at it. So we have 14...

Meghan Smallwood: 17:50

It is a lot.

Patrick Cadigan: 17:50

Yeah, we're kind of getting the ball rolling. And then it sounds like 15 to 17, you can kind of you know, take a little bit of a little bit of a breather, although not much. There is a lot there, especially with the research part now, now we're hitting 18 In this this is a milestone age right.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:08

Yes, a lot happens at 18. Not to be worried,not to be scared. But it's it's time for you to think about some of those big milestones around transition-related topics. The biggest thing I think the parents recognize is applying for SSI, or Supplemental Security Income, and Medicaid. And we will be doing another podcast about the specifics about this because there's a lot that goes into it. And it's not always the easiest process. I think some of our other parents that we have had podcasts with, shared their experience. And again, it's like I said previously, you need to stay on top of it. They are not the most empathetic agencies, they're not the school system. So it's important to stay on top of it and make sure things are in motion and happening for you. One of the most important things I do want to recommend is to wait at least a month until after your child turns 18 to apply for SSI. Applying too soon can really impact the timeline in their database. And I know it sounds funny, but I had parents who have called on their child's 18th birthday and made an appointment and said Okay, we're ready for the SSI appointment. And when they got in there, it was already in the database that they because they'd made the phone call to set up the appointment and they had his name and his birthdate and all that in the in the database. But for them it hadn't caught up yet and he was still seen as a minor and they would look at the parents assets instead of just the child's assets. You want to wait until at least a month until after they turn 18 So that as a Social Security will see them as a legal adult and they will only look at his or her assets and not the families. At that point it will definitely be easier. For them to be found eligible for SSI, it's also important to remember that your child cannot have any bank accounts in their name that exceed $2,000. When you go to apply for SSI, they will want you to make sure there is only ever $2,000 in any account for them while they're receiving SSI as well. And it may be hard to keep that track of that, because I've had parents who things get crazy and money comes in from something or they've been given a gift. And all of a sudden the account is more than $2,000. And they're being denied SSI. So it's just imperative. I know another thing on the plate to think of, but imperative to make sure to hang on to that SSI money to keep that money below$2,000. There are other options if you do have more money for your child in their name, such as a special needs account, or special needs trust, excuse me, or an ABLE account. And we can definitely discuss the ABLE accounts in more details. Later. ABLE account is also very good about providing information sessions, and they're very responsive with any questions you may have. So just keep it in mind when it comes to finances. Those are things you need to remember with SSI at 18. If you do not already have a DDA coordinator or they're the new acronym, a CCS, Coordinator of Community Services, assigned to your child, then this is the time that you want to reach out to DDA and do so. They should be sending out a choice letter around this time for you to select an agency for a coordinator. But it really helps for you as the parent to be proactive on it. Selecting an agency for coordinator is not the same as selecting an agency or provider for day services. I just want to make sure parents are aware of that because you hear the word agency a lot or providers a lot. They're so interchangeable. When they're 18, you really are focusing on that agency for coordination services. It is your choice of which agency you'd like to select for this, but there are five agencies. Actually, I think they're six now for Howard County, and they will be on the choice letter that you get from DDA. But I can tell you service coordination is one that is in Howard County, MMARS or MMARS, Optimal Health, Coordinating Center, Beatrice Loving Heart, and I believe Total Care as well. So it's your choice to select. If you do not make that selection, DDA will randomly assign you a coordinator. And that coordinator is basically your lifeline to DDA. So think of them as that middleman, any paperwork being submitted, anything that needs to run up the chain, or DDA, that coordinator will be that person for you. So again, important for you to stay on top of it. Unfortunately, there's been a huge turnover with coordinators, especially since the pandemic, and parents will not even realize their coordinators gone until they go to email them and email bounces back. So as best as you can stay in touch with them. And if you're not happy with the coordinator, you have the ability to change within that agency or change agencies by contacting DDA. So never think that you're stuck, you can always change until you find someone that is good, or someone that you like, or someone that is responsive.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:30

There is there is so much there. It's always amazing to me.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:34

I know. And that's why I really want to do that DDA podcast, because there's just so I could go on for hours for DDA there's so much information, and I know, there's so many questions around it, and it really does help to hear over and over again.

Patrick Cadigan: 23:48

Well, one of the things though, that I will say that also comes up quite a bit around this age that I've that, you know, as we have talked to families and, and and in talk to just other people, one of the things that does keep coming up also, is the discussion around guardianship or alternatives to guardianship? Or do you want to talk a little bit about that too?

Meghan Smallwood: 24:10

Sure. So I will just start by saying I am not an attorney. I don't know all all the ins and outs about guardianship, but I do know, because I went through it with my sister as well. Guardianship is going through the courts to determine that your child is unable to make decisions on their own, and that they need to appoint you the parents or whoever else you may appoint with you to that be that guardian or person to make those decisions for them. It can be a costly process. It's your choice if you want to go for guardianship or if you want to look at the alternatives to guardianship. The one thing I do want to say is if you do go for guardianship, you do have to know that it is hard to backtrack on that. So If you go and say they're not competent, and I have to be their guardian, it's very hard to go back. I don't need to be their guardian anymore, because the state is gonna say, Well, too late, you know, it's, it's possible, but it's gonna be, it's gonna be tough. But again, it's your choice. And I've had parents who say, Nope, I need to get it for them, they cannot make these decisions, and I want to keep them protected. There are attorneys who are specialized in guardianship for individuals with disabilities in Howard County, and again, talking to other parents who have gone through the experience might help give you some insight on who to work with or how to go about doing it. Also know that there are alternatives to guardianship, we have some great resources, such as disability rights, Maryland who are able to provide information on that, and it's less intrusive, you can always try that. And if it doesn't work for you, then you can go and do guardianship. But just know once your child turns 18, it doesn't just automatically, you don't automatically lose all privileges and everything on the school side. Remember, with COMAR, you have educational decision making rights until they exit school. So with anything that pertains to HCPSS, you still have rights. In terms of the doctor's office, I know parents get very nervous and hear from others, oh, well, they told me my child's turning 18, I don't have any rights anymore, I can't come back with them. Of course, it depends on your doctor. I mean, if you have a family doctor that you've been seeing for years, they might be a little more lenient. But there's a simple form for HIPAA that they offer at the doctor's office that can be signed and filled out and use to go and go in with them. So there are other means around it. And again, that's why the research part is so important. We have some of these resources on our website. There's informational sessions available. So just do that research before 18 to decide which pathway you might want to take, and what would be in your best interest for your child.

Patrick Cadigan: 26:53

All right. So we have covered a pretty wide gamut, right? So we see, we started at 14, then we hit 15 and 17 along the timeline, then we get to 18. All right, so now, what about around the ages of 19- 20? What? What should parents start doing that?

Meghan Smallwood: 27:22

Again, you can breathe, although I probably doesn't feel like you want to because you're like, oh my goodness, it's coming. There's only a couple more years that the end is near. But really, this is again, research time. You start thinking about what you want to 21? Where do you envision your child in five years? Where do you envision them in 10 years? What is your ultimate goal for them? And you? Usually the Transition Specialists will start and your coordinator of community services through DDA will start asking you, you know, are you thinking about a day program? Are you thinking about supported employment? Are you thinking about self direction? And you're probably like, what do these all mean? We have all that information on the website as well. But basically, within Howard County, we have some of the programs that have offer a variety of those services day programming. Let me start by saying DDAs goal is that everyone has a meaningful day experience. They want everyone to be in the community as much as much as they can. And every agency handles that differently. Because they understand that it has to be individualized based on what is best for the individual. Not everyone can spend the whole day, some people might need to come back just for that over or for that sensory, or for personal hygiene issues. So those are definitely conversations as you're looking at what you plan for 21 to have. So like I said, there's a variety of different programs or adult agencies available. And as you get closer to it, the basics to know are that there's a traditional day program side. And there's a self directed services side from DDA. With the traditional day program side, that is more of the school day innocence, where you get a van, they pick you up, you go to the program, you come home, obviously it's individualized. If work is your goal, then it might look a little different. But that's the traditional path that's been in place for DDA, something that's been growing over the past years is self direction. That is where you would actually get a budget from DDA. And you and your child with the help of a team would determine how to shape their day. And that has become like I said, very popular, especially during the pandemic, when a lot of programs were shut down. And they were able to make it work for them and they had the flexibility to make their schedule and work around what they could do. Self direct option definitely is good for those individuals who maybe going every day or five days a week is not the best option for them. It can work for those who want to work and have a different plan in mind, rather than going and reporting to an agency. It's all about your preference. And there's more information about that on the website, and your coordinator and your transition specialist can definitely provide more information. We also do information sessions on it, because it can seem like a lot. And I know parents can be scared of it initially, because it seems like a lot of planning. And it seems like a full time job. But from what I've heard from parents, once you get it situated and set up, it really just, it just works. It rolls every year, you can make changes, obviously. But once the initial it's the initial legwork is done, then it just runs. I don't want to go too much into it, because that's a whole nother topic that we can discuss at a later time. But that's the gist of it.

Patrick Cadigan: 31:04

And then what about 'cause yeah, you're right. It's funny. You know, we're hearing a lot of these topics of discussion, as we have talked with our families in the past. One of the things that does come up also, again, quite a bit is what about documents? What should especially around the age of 19? What What kind of documents should families be gathering together and keeping a hold off?

Meghan Smallwood: 31:31

Yeah, that's good, good to bring up because usually when a student exits at 21, with DDA, they are looking for the most recent psychological assessment, and they like to have a psychological assessment that is within three years old for the most current picture. Usually within your high school career, I would say a reevaluation meeting would align around that time. And where you come to reevaluation, meaning you come every two years to determine eligibility for an IEP within the school system. And they usually check back and files do a file review to see when the last assessments were completed. So that's a good opportunity to check about when your last assessments were completed for your child. And if they're current enough for moving forward. Just make sure you get copies of everything because they will be looking from DDA. In addition with other documents, which they have a list of your I should say your coordinator on behalf of DDA will be looking for, and they will let you know all those things. But on the school end, your Transition Specialists will also be here to help you when it's time to gather the assessment, if you still need a copy, along with the IEP, a behavior plan, any work evaluations, those are the information or the documents that they're mostly looking for.

Patrick Cadigan: 32:58

So starting at the age of 14, and then moving on to 20. Now we get to 21. 21 when any of the students especially those on diploma or non diploma, certificate tracks, are now expected to exit the school system. So What should parents be doing by the age of 21?

Meghan Smallwood: 33:21

So that's scary time, I'm sure. But research definitely still happening, of what programs you're thinking of what agencies that you're considering for after exit. Or if you've decided you want to do the self directed route, start thinking of a plan for their day, what you would like to see them doing and what connections in the community you might need to make in order to make that happen. So it's really the time like in the beginning of the that school year of their last year of schooling, to narrow down those choices so that you can let your coordinator from DDA know, if you're not considering a day program or self directed, let's say, you were thinking of giving them or letting them have that college experience. There are options for individuals with intellectual disabilities available through think college. And I believe we have that resource on our website as well. But think college is another avenue you can explore. Or let's say your child did not qualify or was found eligible for DDA, and you're like, now what I know he needs support. That's where doors can definitely come in handy. because aside from the pre employment training services they offer, there's the vocational rehabilitation or VR status that a student could have after 21 And that's a whole nother application process or doors and you can speak with your counselor about it, but they would also be able to help with Get some of that work preparation and work readiness to make sure that they are able to find employment after they exit the school system. That's the gist of it. I know when we do the DDA podcasts I'm gonna go out, I want to go into a lot more detail about what it looks like. But just know that you should have choices narrowed down for coordinator, you should have documentation prepared. And you shouldn't be advocating nonstop, because that coordinator is going to be imperative to make sure things are moving. So it does not hurt to check in with them weekly if you need to. Don't feel like you're nagging them, this is your child's transition, this is a very important time and you want to make sure the ball is rolling. So that things are not held up after they exit at 21. And they're just sitting at home waiting, because unfortunately, that happens. And I know things are a little backed up right now with DDA just because of where the world has been. But it can move and you need to just make sure it is so my biggest piece of advice.

Patrick Cadigan: 36:06

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of information that's actually out there. And the expectation, you know that families are going to kind of absorb all this and, and synthesize it, and then you know, be able to do something about it. It's just absolutely incredible to me. Yeah,

Meghan Smallwood: 36:24

it's a lot I get it. It's a lot. And a lot of parents don't know where to start, or they don't know if they're looking at the right information or if it pertains to them. And again, ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask questions. No one, no one's going to be angry that you ask questions. If anything, they appreciate it. Because I, I struggle, I think when I have parents who don't ever ask anything, or I don't hear anything from them, and I worry, because I don't know, maybe they have it all figured out. And that's great. But I just want to make sure everyone understands the best they can before they leave us.

Patrick Cadigan: 37:11

So that's where we're going to end this discussion. But needless to say, we're certainly not done. This topic of discussion was around timelines, like Meghan and I had said earlier, one of the things that we are planning to do moving forward is to put out a series of discussions that give us a 101 overview of what to expect from not only transition, but then post secondary transition as well. This one is timeline negative, what is our next topic of discussion, we're going to, into where to start, right? So looking. Looking at it from where to start, starting from freshman year, and the things that you're going to need to get and moving all the way through senior year. So again, there's always a lot of information to, to look out for and listen for. And that is what we are here for but without. But without further ado, please, please, please don't forget to like and follow the podcast. If you know any other families that you think would benefit from this information, please push it out to them, let them know about us. We've been getting feedback and boy who really appreciate it. As we've mentioned many times on this particular episode, we have our website, www dot post secondary transition.com. That is a website that we are continuing to build into and on to and anything that you think that we're missing or you'd like to see, let us know. We're happy to. We're happy to engage. We really liked that. So with that, and Ms. Meghan, you want to sign us off.

Meghan Smallwood: 38:59

Yep. Thanks for coming back. We hope it was informative, and we hope to see you again.

Patrick Cadigan: 39:03

Thank you guys. We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye.