Meghan Smallwood: 0:00

The post secondary transition process is a significant milestone in the lives of students with disabilities. It's a crucial phase for families that involves asking hard questions, research and planning that will help to address the specific needs and challenges associated with your young adult and their specific disability. In our discussions, we aim to provide you with an understanding of this transition, offer insights into the various aspects of preparation, support, and resources available to ensure your child's successful journey into adult adulthood. equipping them with the skills and knowledge they need to achieve their goals and aspirations. Welcome. This is the Post Secondary Transition podcast, we try to cover the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I'm one of the hosts My name is Meghan Smallwood, I'm a public school transition coordinator. And my sidekick is...

Patrick Cadigan: 0:51

I'm Patrick Cadigan. I'm a public school special education teacher. And here we go, we're heading into part two of talking with Coordinator of Community Service Jamie Brodnax. For our longtime listeners, you'll remember that last week, we hooked up with Jamie, we focus primarily on the benefits of the self-direction model. And obviously, we're still gonna focus on self-direction. But this time, we're also going to kind of, we're gonna move into the discussion around a some of the benefits of the some of the more traditional models. So we'll kind of weave in and out. Without further ado, I will say, Let us join the conversation with Jamie, already in progress. As we're continuing to have this conversation I kind of want to segue and I want to ask about so we're talking a lot about the benefits of self-direction. But what about the benefits, what if families wanted to go the more traditional route? What are some of the benefits of actually going with a provider?

Jamie Brodnax: 1:49

I think the biggest benefit that I see is not having to take on the responsibility of scheduling of you know, worrying about hiring staff or making sure your staff are going to come that day, when you are going to a provider agency, you have the expectation that that provider is going to provide the oversight that is needed to make sure that whether it's the individual or their family, that the person receiving services is receiving services, as it's outlined in their plan. And for the most part, you know, you you expect that when that service starts, whether it's going to a day program, or moving into a residential home, that from the moment the individual is in the care of that provider that they are cared for, and their needs are being met.

Meghan Smallwood: 2:36

I feel like there's a lot of parents, even though they hear the benefits of self directed, they just have in their head, that it's more of a secure, I don't have to worry about anything, it's taken care of. For me, you know, it's one less thing on my plate. And they want a traditional program. And I mean, and I always tell families, it's whatever works best for you and your loved one. So it's your choice. But it's just important to hear all of the options and just hear the pros and cons of both sides and hear from others who are living it just so you can make the best decision.

Jamie Brodnax: 3:10

Yeah, it's absolutely not to say that traditional services or self directed services are better or worse than the other. It's just for some people, they're better. For other people, something else is better. And I think that that's probably why DDA does have the option to choose how you receive your services, because we do want people to be able to have the plan that best suits them.

Patrick Cadigan: 3:35

And then do you think that in terms of being with a provider, are there more opportunities for socialization versus a self directed model? Or does it just depend?

Jamie Brodnax: 3:47

I think it depends, but there absolutely can be more opportunities. Just because with a traditional provider, especially in those meaningful day services, like the day programs or the CDs service, you know, when the individual is attending those in a group setting, even individuals who receive one to one services are still included into the group with their one to one support. So there is that understanding that every day, you're going to have an opportunity to socialize, to partake, participate in group activities, and just try out different things that you may not have the ability to try out and on your own personal time. self-direction also has those opportunities, it's just more responsibility on the person in their team to identify those were in traditional services. Again, that's the provider's responsibility.

Patrick Cadigan: 4:41

So it's almost like giving you a definite place to go.

Meghan Smallwood: 4:44

But with self-direction I mean, making those connections early on is helpful because I know so many Facebook groups and we talked about before, you know have popped up for families on self-direction Trying to make connections with others so they can go out and do social activities and outings together.

Jamie Brodnax: 4:59

Yeah, yeah, and I mean, I even work with some individuals who have stayed in contact with their peers from school. So now that they're out of school, they still get together, sometimes on a weekly or bi weekly basis, just to hang out, go to lunch, you know, do fun things like bowling other activities, just to keep that social opportunity available. But you're not forced to do it every day. It's not a requirement, you can do it as you choose.

Meghan Smallwood: 5:28

Again, which works better for some individuals.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:31

Yeah. And I seem to remember that one of our offline conversations included in regards to benefits of the provider model was continuing education, right? There were opportunities for people to take classes or do job training or things like that.

Jamie Brodnax: 5:49

Totally. So a lot of providers have really great programs set up where an individual can identify things that interest them, or things that they think might possibly interest them, but they've never had the chance to try before. There are providers who offer volunteer work, there are providers who have, you know, programs that are just strictly within the day program, things like gardening, food service, learning, you know, to support with secretarial type tasks. There's also day programs who enroll in regular classes, like cooking classes is a huge one, just about every individual I support, who participates in the cooking classes love them. So those are things that the provider puts in place, um, you know, that really is a benefit of going to their program, knowing that you're going to have access to that activity with peers, and you know, the accommodations that you need to participate. But again, with the right team, you can have that in self-direction, it's just, again, the responsibility is put on the team to really identify those opportunities, schedule them and make sure that the person has the support they need to participate.

Meghan Smallwood: 7:04

Right, it's not specific to a program, they're available, you just have to be the advocate and make the effort to find them.

Jamie Brodnax: 7:12

Yeah, yep. And another thing, you know, kind of touching back on that day to day administrator position, that's something that your day to day administrator can do for you is identify activities, identify, you know, events that are happening in your community, things that your support staff can then take you out and support you in participating in also that unallocated funding can be used to help pay for the cost of certain activities, as long as they're justified within the person's plan and the goals that they've set for themselves.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:46

So looking at it from someone who knows absolutely nothing about this, then how would they How would families find out about these opportunities around like education? And are continuing education, job programs, things like that? Where do they go?

Jamie Brodnax: 8:05

There's a lot of places. So always start with your team. So your coordinator, your support broker, those two people typically have experience supporting others in the community and accessing things that interest them. So talk about your interests, talk about the things that you want for yourself, or you know, as families talk about the things that you would like for your loved one. Also support groups. I know you guys mentioned that one line, and in social media groups, talk to your loved one school, they may know of, you know, groups that have been set up by previous students or just community activities, specific to our area, the Parks and Recs have a whole list of what they consider therapeutic activities. But it's really activities for people have just differing abilities. We have such great programs to like the Special Olympics, that really do a great job of bringing people together and creating these groups. And really those relationship connections, I think, is probably where you're going to find the biggest resources, you know, meeting people asking them what they do, just like anybody else, we meet friends, and we talk about different interests and build on our own activities

Meghan Smallwood: 9:20

Yeah, I agree. I think the Park and Rec in our that way. area is a very untapped resource for many and it's a goldmine if you look at it and like what they offer. And then also the college campuses, I think just exploring what kind of classes are offered because I know in our surrounding area, there are some really good act, courses or classes being offered, like you'd mentioned cooking, and just a variety of different things that appeal to different interests. So I think it's just a matter of taking the time knowing the interest and doing the research.

Patrick Cadigan: 9:55

I will throw out that as somebody who has worked with Parks and Rec before, from my perspective, I feel like it's a challenge of marketing. I agree with you that there are so many things that are available through that county program, but they just don't do a very good job of like letting people know.

Jamie Brodnax: 10:12

I think the therapeutic aspect throws people off a little bit, because when you're going to look at activities, you will likely click on the link that says activities in sports. But, you know, they have chosen to list any sort of varying disability activities under their therapeutic. So it is a little bit more difficult to find. But again, connecting with your support broker, and your coordinator, they can really help you identify that. And DORS is another great resource that I know the school system typically starts off. Not all the time, but a lot of times as individuals are already transitioning into adult services, they have that connection with DORS. But DORS is able to offer so many different, really great educational and pre job training, and then even support as you are starting to work in paid employment. So that's that's a great resource to tap into, if you haven't already.

Meghan Smallwood: 11:13

Yeah. And it's totally possible to have your DDA funding and DORS funding and use both of them just not, you know, at the same time.

Jamie Brodnax: 11:20

Yeah, as you move into adult services with that job development. That's exactly what happens is DORS coordinates with the meaningful day providers to provide that service. And then as you're moving into being a paid employee and having a secure job, transition into employment services, where you have a provider support you as you continue to work.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:44

Alright, so Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to sound more intelligent than I really am, that one of the other benefits of having the provider is that you're not necessarily going to...budgetary concerns are not at the forefront. Right? They're going to take care of that for you.

Jamie Brodnax: 11:59

Yeah, absolutely. So the budget really only comes into play on an individual's world when they're in self-direction. When you're in traditional services, the funding amounts are there. But it's not going to impact the individual because they are not having to worry about how much their staff are being paid. It's not their responsibility to ensure that the provider is even receiving the funding, all of that happens directly between DDA and the provider.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:31

One topic that comes up, and I am thinking specifically of our discussion with Pam, was transportation. Is transportation covered under the traditional provider model?

Jamie Brodnax: 12:45

It is in some circumstances. So for typical day program, and CDS providers, a lot of them do offer transportation to and from their sites. And then of course, any sort of outing or community activity during the day, they provide the transportation to and from. But in self-direction, there are options that can support a person with their transportation, we are able to request reimbursement funding to cover things like Ubers, you're also able to provide mileage reimbursement to your employees. So for example, if you have an employee who is supporting you in CDS, any place that they take you during the day, as long as they're tracking that mileage, they can submit it at the end of the pay period and receive reimbursement and that's built into your budget. That's a decision that we make as we're building the budget.

Meghan Smallwood: 13:40

Because, like you mentioned with the budget for self directed when they're allocating funds for different categories that can always be changed later on, right? It's not You're not stuck to one for the rest of your time, it's self-direction. If you find that you're not using too much money in one, you can always switch it over to something else where you might need more.

Jamie Brodnax: 14:00

Yep, absolutely. So as long as it is a service that you have already requested, and it's already in the plan, we can pretty much freely move money through a process that's called budget modification, where you would contact your support broker and your coordinator. And together you know, after especially after we're reviewing the reports that the FMS submitted monthly to let you know how much money is leftover in each of your different categories. You submit that budget modification and we're able to move money from one service to another. If it is something that is not previously requested in the plan, you do have to complete a PCP revision to make the funding available within that service. But that's also something that your coordinator can support you with.

Meghan Smallwood: 14:47

How long of a process with a budget modification be like isn't a lengthy time that you're waiting or is it fairly quick?

Jamie Brodnax: 14:56

So for just a budget modification, it's a pretty quick process, you would just contact your coordinator work out the specifics, the coordinator then would complete the budget modification form, submit that on your behalf. And then the FMS will contact you to let you know once that's been approved, typically, I would say 48 hours. Oh, of course, it can be a little quicker, or it can take a little longer depending. But that's the average. Now if it is to do a PCP revision, that's what I was gonna do. Next. That can be a much longer process, upwards of two months. Also give or take a little bit depending,

Meghan Smallwood: 15:37

I mean, two months, still not as terrible as I was expecting, I guess. But...

Patrick Cadigan: 15:41

Okay, once again, acronym vomit, I don't know what you're talking about. What is PCP?

Meghan Smallwood: 15:47

Oh, sorry Patrick.

Jamie Brodnax: 15:47

PCP, that's the Person Centered Plan. And that is the plan that an individual along with your entire team creates to determine the outcomes or goals that they're going to be addressing that year, the services that they're going to request to support those outcomes, and then how those services will be implemented to support their needs.

Meghan Smallwood: 16:11

So almost like your replacement IEP after you leave the school system.

Jamie Brodnax: 16:15

Pretty much exactly that.

Meghan Smallwood: 16:18

Do you have any advice? Because I know one of the biggest fears is after exit, moving forward and having your services start. And I've notoriously heard that it does take a little longer for approval with DDA for self-direction. To get up and running as opposed to like a traditional day program. Do you have any advice as to how to kind of like speed that up for a self-direction? Someone who's doing self-direction upon exit? Is there anything they could do to make it easier, quicker?

Jamie Brodnax: 16:46

Reach out early on to your coordinator, start making those decisions and requesting the information that you need to make those decisions and ask questions. Don't be afraid if there's something that you don't understand or something that you want more information on. Ask about it. Because the more information you have, the better you can do it making those informed choices and they don't seem as scary when you have the answers. But the biggest thing to start working on upfront is really making the decision, are you for sure that you want to move into self direction or do you want to go traditional. Because once that decision is made, then you can start working on all of the smaller choices like choosing the FMS agency, you know, connecting with a support broker and identifying the services that you're going to want to support you.

Meghan Smallwood: 17:36

So getting an idea of what you would want the day to look like early on would be helpful knowing where in the community or if there was a provider that took like self directed funding, or like one of those agencies that they could access, like getting in touch with them and doing the research? Okay.

Jamie Brodnax: 17:52

Yeah, Yep, absolutely. And thinking about who you want to work with, if it is going to be a provider, or if it's going to be family or friends, talk to them and sure that they're on board. Yeah, you know, let them know what that might look like. And, you know, start considering if you do want to advertise or hire, you know, outwards of your family and friends, maybe thinking about what that looks like what you're looking for in an employee. So you start to put that together, because that new hire process also does take some time. And that can be a delay, even if you have your plan approved. If you don't have staff to provide those services, you're...

Meghan Smallwood: 18:31

Right.

Jamie Brodnax: 18:31

...still going to be waiting.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:32

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 18:33

So as we're talking about these two different models, one self-direction. And then the traditional provider model, if there was like, if there was something that you were going to pass on to families like this, there's a significant difference, what was what would one of those things be?

Jamie Brodnax: 18:50

From my perspective, I think the biggest difference is having control of what you do during the day. You know, if you're in self-direction, you can really make that be almost anything. If you are choosing to go with a provider, they are going to be primarily in control of what opportunities are offered, you, of course, are in control of whether you participate. But the opportunities that you have will differ based off of what the provider chooses to present to the group that day, or if you're in self-direction, based off what you choose that you want to participate in that day.

Patrick Cadigan: 19:27

And then one of the notes that I have is live-in provider?

Jamie Brodnax: 19:31

So I mean, a big thing for individuals who are interested in self-direction is having to understand that there is not currently a Community Living option. Under the self directed model. If an individual needs to live in a provider owned residents, they need to be in traditional services. You know, that may change at some point in the future. But right now, that is where we're at.

Meghan Smallwood: 19:59

But that doesn't mean If they can have some form of housing outside of the the parents home with they were on self directed.

Jamie Brodnax: 20:08

Absolutely. So there's a lot of different housing options that are available to people and self-direction. Of course independent housing. If you are financially able to live independently, live with a roommate, whatever you choose, you can receive services in any home. There's also the option to receive housing support services, which assist an individual and potentially applying for a housing voucher or rental subsidy voucher or another government based home situation. There's also a service called supportive living, which basically can provide up to round the clock support and staff for a person who is living in a privately owned setting. It really is just that provider owned home, that you wouldn't require traditional services to access.

Patrick Cadigan: 21:04

So with all of that, with all of the information that we've just talked about all of the stuff that we've shared, does it ever become overwhelming? Do you like my thinking, my thinking is, do you forget more than you remember?

Jamie Brodnax: 21:21

It depends on the day. You know, really, I feel like I go through it so often, that sometimes it just, I just am able to say it, and I just know it. But forget to kind of how you've helped us today, Patrick, forget to break it down and make sure that it's completely understandable. Because if I'm just sitting here and saying FMS and support broker, and DDA and day to day administrator, a person is going to look at me and not have any clue what I'm talking about. So a big part of it is learning to take the official statements and kind of simplify them and make sure that every person that I'm working with whether it's individual receiving services, or anybody else on our team completely understands, you know, what is being said and what their options are? Some days, I have no clue.

Patrick Cadigan: 22:17

That's me, Patrick Cadigan, a special educator. I'm there for the families, man.

Jamie Brodnax: 22:22

Appreciate it.

Patrick Cadigan: 22:24

All right, Miss Megan, you got anything else that you can think of in the, in the short term.

Meghan Smallwood: 22:29

I think Jamie covered at all that was wonderful. And I think that's the point, I think it really helps for the parents to be able to go back and hear it over and over and over and understand. Like we said, it's it, it's not as scary as you think it really is possible, you're not alone in it, you have that team of support, and so use them.

Jamie Brodnax: 22:48

Yeah, and I really kind of push that heavily when I do see that there's a family who's really interested in self-direction. And I to base off of what they've told me feel that self-direction is probably going to be a better option for them. Just reminding them, you are not going to be alone, you are this is not going to be your only full time job, we are a team and this, and all of us are going to do a part to make sure that they've run smoothly. Those first couple months where we're doing all the decision making and making the budget and going through the schedules, it can seem like a lot, and I warn people, you're probably going to be tired of talking to me after this process is done. But once it's done, it's done. We never have to go through this entire process. Again, it's just little tweaks here and there, as we go on to make sure that the person's needs are met.

Meghan Smallwood: 23:45

Yeah. And it's it's so nice that they have you to help them with that, because I feel like as a transition specialist, I'm giving them the initial information, and kind of like, you know, motivating me to do it. But then I drop off. And I'm like, I'm not there to see it through. So hopefully it all fully, you know, falls into place. So I'm glad that they

Jamie Brodnax: 24:03

Thank you. And I really encourage people to reach have you. out to their team. Because it still surprises me sometimes when I meet with families, and they have these questions, or sometimes they have this misinformation.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:17

Yeah.

Jamie Brodnax: 24:18

And it's just because they they were never comfortable asking.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:22

Yeah.

Jamie Brodnax: 24:22

So they've gotten things off the internet or they've gotten things from social media groups that weren't always 100% accurate.

Meghan Smallwood: 24:28

Right.

Jamie Brodnax: 24:28

And it scared them more

Meghan Smallwood: 24:30

Right, I agree. And I know that the you know, it's an I just had a conversation with the parent about this about traditional day programs, you know, other you don't know what's going on and other people's minds are, you know, what their perspectives are and how they may differ from yours and you have to take everything that you hear from others with a grain of salt and make your own. You know, decisions about things because it is good to get feedback from others but at the same time, you need to really think about you and your loved one is would this work for you? Even though someone else said, Oh, this is horrible, or this is, you know, very hard like, you step back for a minute and just think about you and your loved ones.

Jamie Brodnax: 25:09

Yeah, completely.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:12

Once again, you really helped us out. And...

Meghan Smallwood: 25:15

Yes.

Jamie Brodnax: 25:16

Happy to help.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:16

Yeah, we appreciate you coming out and talking with us about all this stuff. Well, once again, talking with Jamie is always great. And I don't know about you, Meghan, I have learned an awful lot.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:30

Oh, absolutely.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:32

Yeah, it was nice to have her back. I'm sure that she'll probably well, I mean, I would hope anyway, that she'll want to come back again, we'll have to think about

Meghan Smallwood: 25:40

I hope so. So she's a great resource. And I some... think she really wants the best for families and wants to help. So...

Patrick Cadigan: 25:47

Yeah.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:47

We appreciate that.

Patrick Cadigan: 25:48

Yeah, she's really top notch. Well, let's see before we're gonna let everyone go. If I remember correctly, it's time for us for the well, that's helpful resource.

Meghan Smallwood: 25:57

It is. And it's my turn to provide a resource, which I'm very excited about this one. Because it's not an agency, it's an organization. But it is a great tool to have in your toolbox. We talk about that a lot. Just having so many things at your disposal. And Charting the Life Course, is one of those things. It's a great framework and approach that helps individuals and families plan for and navigate their various life transitions in stages. So it's just a planning tool, when you really think about what would be the good life for your loved one when they leave the school system. I like it, because it's not just the parent, you know, on an island trying to figure this out on their own. It's a collaborative engagement and just the community approach, looking at the person as a whole with a whole bunch of people that know them from different aspects of their life. It's all about having different conversations, making sure those expectations are still high, but integrating multiple levels and types of support. And it does not have to be done by a professional, it can be done by family members, we'll have the link in our show notes for you so that you can go ahead and take a look at what it entails in some of the pieces of organizational methods that they use for the framework. But it's not even solely used for individuals with disabilities. It's just about someone who wants to have a vision for a good quality life and how to chart it out. It was actually a framework developed by the National Community of Practice for supporting families of the US administration for community living. So it is not specific to our state. It's a nationwide framework that can be used. So check out Charting the Life Course we highly recommend it. It's just a great idea, especially if you're moving into the transitioning into the next part of your life with your loved one.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:45

All right, one more great resource for families to use. And let's see, I think I think that brings an end to the conversation, doesn't it?

Meghan Smallwood: 27:56

I think so. And what a good conversation it was. Alright, so as always, we just want to remind you to follow the information from this conversation in our show notes. Make sure to like follow Him. Please, please, please share out the podcast with anyone and everyone. We want more people just to be able to use it for their advantage and make it one of the tools in their toolbox. Visit our YouTube channel where we've posted videos of all our conversations, including doing some of the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. We've created play with playlists that cover guardianship, alternatives to guardianship, ABLE accounts, and still more to come. So be sure to subscribe there as well. And finally, check out our website which is chock full of information around the transition process. And you'll find our contact information there too. If you have any follow up questions or any requests for podcasts. We love hearing those. So be sure to go to www.postsecondarytransition.com And we thank you as always for chiming in and listening to our rambling talks about transition topics.

Patrick Cadigan: 29:00

Hey, hey, hey, no rambling here. We're good. We're good. We know we're doing Yeah, we're, we're solid professionals here. We know what's up.

Meghan Smallwood: 29:07

Exactly.

Patrick Cadigan: 29:08

All right. Well, you know what, I think then that we can sign this one off. We've got some more good stuff coming. So like Meghan said, Please come back. But otherwise, we're out. Thank you so much.

Meghan Smallwood: 29:19

Thank you