Patrick Cadigan: 0:20

And there is the record button. Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! We are here for the Post-Secondary Transition podcast, where we have conversations around the ins and outs and everything in between of the transition process for families of students with disabilities. I'm one of those hosts. My name is Patrick Cadigan. I am a public school special education teacher. Who is my co-host?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:40

I am Meghan Smallwood, and I am a public school transition coordinator. And before we begin our conversation, we'd like to give our listeners a definition of what we're talking about. So post-secondary transition just really focuses between ages 14 to 21, and really helps to answer that question of what do you want for your child after they leave school? We're looking to help answer that question by asking parents to think long term, those milestones ahead of you the research the resources and the goals you have.

Patrick Cadigan: 1:07

And how do we define long term? Well, what do you want for your child to be doing after the school bus stops coming? It's different for everybody in it's a completely individualized experience. And along with that, individuality can come loneliness. And in some cases, a sense of isolation. It really is a unique experience. But there are other families who are going through this planet will be at the same time that you are.

Meghan Smallwood: 1:32

And along that journey, there's milestones that you need to focus on. Some of those milestones are built around timeframes, but others can be at your own timeframe, when you're comfortable and ready for them. Using your child's school experiences will really help while doing that research. And using the resources at your disposal, such as your special educator, general education teachers, the school administration, or if you're supported by one, a school transition specialist, and also those outside agencies. It's a lot of information, and there's a lot to consider. And in many cases, the answers will not always present themselves immediately, there might be some give and take. And there will be things that you do that might not have the desired outcome, trying to do all that at once can really feel consuming. So we're here hoping to help clear away some of that fog for you.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:18

So for today's conversation, this will be the second part of our discussion with Liz Burley who was a transition coordinator with 40 plus years of experience, and she was over in neighboring Prince George's County. Liz has awesome insights into the transition process. And we really appreciated our time with her. So without further ado. We recently had a discussion with another former transition coordinator, Betsy and one of the things that she impressed upon me as I was listening to her talking was that the the discussion of transition is it is a process. And so because it is a process, like timelines can look very different. And you have to take in the needs of the of the student, not the child of the parent, what the agencies are doing and looking for, and you know, things like that, but it is a process. So as I'm hearing you talk I'm thinking about, that's just reinforcing that idea that in that process changes will need to be made. And you know, you're gonna have to be able to adapt, and that that in and of itself, that adaptation can be a big a big deal.

Liz Burley: 3:44

And transition is changing all the time. All the time. You know, regulations are changing all the time. We used to have a lot of the day programs where the kids did piecework that kids aren't doing piecework anymore. What are they doing now? They're going out in the community, what can they do? What are their likes, what did they like to do? Everything is changing all the time. So we have to be ready for that change. And it takes time. It's not easy. It's not easy for parents when their kids go off to college. And I've had parents even, you know, in our programs, some parents are thinking that graduation is the most exciting day of their lives. And then others say it's the saddest day, because they're leaving that world that they know, that supports their child and they know a lot of them know many of the teachers and staff for years and years because they've been with him all these years. You know, so now they're going out into the world of the unknown and that and that's scary for the adults, as well.

Patrick Cadigan: 4:41

Over the course of your career, what do you think of is the biggest change in transition? Like the biggest, like positive change in transition?

Liz Burley: 4:54

Many, many more students are working, is one of the biggest changes I've seen from our students, you know, that graduated with certificates. They're non-diploma students. But when you see more and more been working courtesy clerks, they're working in different places, the community is opening the doors to more people with disabilities. So the awareness, I think, has grown so much over the years, that it's much more acceptable, but aren't as stigmatized as they used to be, you know, you're still going to find some that are, the doors have opened more. You know, you see more people with disabilities on television and in movies, you know, so they know what the capabilities are, I think those are some of the biggest changes that I've seen years ago, it was, you had a child with a significant disability, and the doctor said, put them in an institution, you know, and now we don't have those institutions anymore. So that's another big change. Because at the time, people don't know, and even doctors don't know at all, even as many of them that I worked with, over the years that have come to graduate, I said, many of you sit here at graduation. And a lot of you, the doctors have told you your child wouldn't live past the age of five. And here they are now 21, graduating their program. I said, so everybody doesn't know all the answers all the time. You know, so you have to go with that. And you just have to keep pushing forward.

Patrick Cadigan: 6:28

So along those lines, then where do you see change, still needing to happen? Like what what would you like to see moving forward?

Liz Burley: 6:38

I know there's much more integration going on, as far as the programs being put in public schools here in, I know in Prince George's County, what we used to call our own special education centers are being eliminated. And they're putting the classes in the new buildings that are being built in and integrating them into the regular high school, middle schools and elementary schools. So that everybody is aware. I think when kids grow up with kids with disabilities in their classrooms, they learn, Okay, it's, it's just as much of a learning process for our general ed kids, as it is for our special needs kids, those general ed kids grow up to become our providers, our teachers, and sometimes even parents. So it's about the knowing and as a young age, building that compassion, and when you're exposed to it at a young age, like everything else, it becomes natural. As you get older, that you're more open to hiring somebody with a disability, you're more open to working with somebody with a disability, you know, so you become much more compassionate of anybody working with your disability. So those things I think, are are critical that we see more and more.

Meghan Smallwood: 7:57

I know, you had mentioned before about the trial and error, learning what their strengths are, what they liked to do, what they didn't like to do. Is there a work program where the students actually go out in the community during the day in Prince George's County.

Liz Burley: 8:10

Yes and I know COVID has thrown a lot of those...around. But yeah, and in that in the high school things...

Meghan Smallwood: 8:13

Yeah. programs, that we've tried to get them out four days a week into different you know, vocational type programs where This is an adult, you know? So you have to understand the they're experiencing different things, and working in different positions. Whether it be in retail, and you know, hanging clothes at Marshalls or sorting clothes, but those are some types of things that they do, whether it's with food service in any of the cafeterias, whether it's cleaning and in different areas around some of those jobs that they can do. Some of them get jobs that come into the building where they're differences in the social, what is socially acceptable. You know, so getting the kids to practice that handshaking and the greetings if they can, you know, a fist bumps or whatever doing some assembly type work, you know, so those are some it is, that make it acceptable with their peers, and it's gonna be new foot for everybody. I know, at the high school. When things and working on those behavioral skills, you know, are we first had our certificate students come into the high school. You know, there was some Some issues were the kids really critical that make our kids socially acceptable out in weren't running out to their buses in different gates and everything. And there was a group of kids in the cafeteria that started laughing. One kid get up on the table and yelled the community, learning how to shake hands and some of my at everybody said, Who the heck do you think you are yelling at them, that could be your brother, your sister, your aunt, parents that have heard me talk for a while I always say one of your uncle, your niece, your nephew, don't be laughing at them. After that, you could have heard a pin drop, they sit in the cafeteria. And the kids then start accepting them into the my favorite lines is, "What's cute at five is not cute at 15." cafeteria at lunchtime and sitting at the tables with them and getting to know them. So it was an opening by one person It's cute when the little five year old comes running up and that got them the rest of the kids accepted. So only takes one out of a large group that makes it unacceptable the bad behavior hugging you. When that now five year old is now six foot five, and gets the acceptable behavior to be customized to everybody. It became an integration thing in the cafeteria, then where the and they come running up trying to hug you it scares people to kids went in to eat their lunch with everybody else, they didn't have to sit in a separate corner, you know, or a separate table that we eat and with their classmates with everybody else. death. Because now is this a grown person. It only takes that one. And that one has to be somebody even in the family.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:09

I think it's interesting, because I, even in discussions with my teacher friends, sometimes we, when we're having those discussions, we talk about that it's easier for the kids to accept students with disabilities into the classroom than even some of the adults, which I think is pretty amazing.

Liz Burley: 11:27

Well, and the younger kids have a much more open mind at the time. I think we as adults get set in our ways. Like, it's like the teacher that wants to do the same lesson over and over again, they have to do it the same way each time they do it. It's the same worksheets, it's the same, this same discussions. So it's about breaking out even with our own habits, you know, as we get in, we get set in our ways. So all the people are set in their ways, and they kind of ah, and they still have some of the old astigmatism. Are they contagious? You know, what's gonna happen? Are they gonna hurt somebody. So it's the fear of the unknown. Given your chance, giving yourself a chance to note them. I think our our young adults, Igel Ed, young adults learn as much from the student with a disability, as the kid with a disability can learn from the gen ed student. Because that that gen ed student is learning some compassion. They're learning how to help somebody else. They're learning how to defend somebody in a positive way, and speaking up, and they're learning to advocate for this other young adult, you know, so I think that is just as important of a lesson as anything you could teach.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:51

Liz, if you as we're having the conversation, of course, we're talking about certificate track students who will not graduate with a high school diploma, and then we have our diploma students; did you have a preference in terms of the students that you worked with? Like, one of the things that Meghan and I have discussed is that obviously, a lot of the information that we push out there is for our nondiploma-bound students? Because there's lots and lots of information out there for the diploma-bound students as well. So did you did you have a preference in terms of who you'd like to work with?

Liz Burley: 13:25

I didn't. I used to go back and forth between the two so much, you know, because I had my non diploma students also here in my house, you know, so dealing with that 24/7, as Well as my other son, my, my son that went into the Air Force, I said, so, you know, I was dealing with both ends, even in within my own home. I didn't I guess it's sometimes those kids that are on in the middle of the road. It's the kids that are not quite a certificate base students, but are in that...

Patrick Cadigan: 13:58

We call 'em tweeners.

Meghan Smallwood: 13:59

Tweeners.

Liz Burley: 14:00

Those are the kids sometimes they get really stuck. They're too high to get long term services, yet, they're not as independent as they need to be to be out there on their own full time. So it's about getting them to know where the resources are for them, and following through. So if they get involved with the Division of rehab services, and they get some job training, and they get some support, to do what they want to do, I think that becomes critical. Knowing that they could go to workforce Technology Center in Baltimore, and get automotive training, or get off his computer skills, training, any of those things would be critical to know what they want to do. Knowing that they could get their driver's license, you know, and that they have driving programs for them. Those are some things that are critical. So getting them to understand the different programs that are out there and available is really important for that group of young people because they become very, very successful. A lot of them then wind up starting their own business. Or they have family members that help them start their own business. So they take over and work in their family businesses. So all those things become very critical for them.

Meghan Smallwood: 15:12

Again, it's helping them find their niche and what they want to do. And also, I think the parents continuing that advocacy piece.

Liz Burley: 15:19

Absolutely. And sometimes those, those are also the kids where the parents kind of pull back a little bit more, they really become on their own. I've had students that have, you know, when we did some job training, they got placed, and in a work study program with with the government, and some of them kept those jobs for 30 years, they were able to work in some of the entry level positions within the government and then work their way up to higher levels. It's about knowing what the niches where the where the opportunities are for them.

Meghan Smallwood: 15:53

Yeah. And that's one thing, another parent that we interviewed Pam Paris, she shared, you know, and she, she took her son to the job fair for the schools. And she said, look, he will be your best employee, he will show up every day, he is here for 30 years. And he will do what he's told he wants to teach them. So you'd be silly not to hire him.

Liz Burley: 16:16

And that's with all I mean, I see the courtesy clerk at my Safeway store has been there for years and years. Now, so they're there, they love their job, they're great with the people, the customers, you never see them not happy. They're happy with everything that they're doing. We as as non disabled people have to really sometimes sink into ourselves, you know, why am I in such a grouchy mood? Alright, and that you could be going into the store, and then this kid brightens brightens up your day by just saying, Hey, how are you? Oh, glad to see you. Because they're always happy, they're always happy with the job that they're doing. They know, there's never anything that they don't like to do. You know. So those are some key points, you know, for our our young people and people in general, it doesn't matter the job you're doing, if you like doing it, one of my other young men, was a diploma-bound student almost did not graduate. Every year and in for some of this, some youth employment program wanted to work as a custodian in the school buildings. So he had an opportunity every year to work in a school building, to the Summer Youth Employment Program. When he got out of school, he got a part time night job as a school custodian. Okay, after 25 years, the young man now is the supervisor, one of the highest largest high schools in the county, and is training other people. You know, so as a family who has bought a home, as you know, contributed to society. And his raised his family here, if you love what you do when he took over a high school building that I'd never seen, that was one of our older buildings. And after he was done with it, after the first year, I couldn't get over the difference in the building, the principal was just amazed the difference in the building, because he took such pride in his work. But the other thing he learned is that, that I learned from other people is the way he treated his staff. You know, he learned how to treat his staff with respect, you know, got everybody working as a team player. So no, it also turned out how wonderful his character was, and that he learned through the years, how he wanted to be treated. And that's how he treated his support staff. He's one of my biggest success stories that I always talk about. And he's done wonderful. Yeah, so you take pride in those those stories of the kids... Yeah....we've worked with, keep coming back to become part of the family. So...

Meghan Smallwood: 19:00

I think sometimes we face the struggle, where there's a disconnect to between what the child or the young adult is telling us they're interested in and what the family's expectations are for them. And that's hard as the school, you know, staff to try and be that middleman to make them see, you know, Well, this is really what would make them happy.

Liz Burley: 19:24

Because we have these expectations of where we want our kids to be. And I always try to look at it as the point just that I said, okay, you want him to sit in an office, but, you know, he can't sit still. Is that going to be a good match for them? You know, times when we're afraid sometimes to have those honest conversations with parents to say, Well, have you really looked at this, this really gonna be a good match for him? You know, what does he really like to do? I'm not lowering my expectations because as an educator and a teacher in my building anytime I changed offices before First person I got to know is the school secretary, and the head custodian. Yep. I knew those are the two people that could get me whatever I needed. You know. So those are the important people in your building. And those are the first people everybody goes to for cleaning up for other things. And people have to change their mindset that that that job is beneath them. People all the time, the school custodian makes more than the teachers do, you know? So, think about some of those things as far as what they want to do, just like the Trashman. If you like doing it, hey, then you're happy with what you're doing. Another young man that had autism could not read, he wanted a job, like his father and wear a shirt and tie to work every day. You know, he could not read limited academic areas. The job he, they wound up getting him, he has one of the highest security clearances now. Because he works at NSA. And he works in the shredding room. And he's has autism. So he loves the humming of the shredding machine. And he can't read any of the confidential documents. So he's not a security risk. Yet he goes into the gate with his white shirt and tie on every day. Like his dad, and he goes in and works in the in the shredding room.

Meghan Smallwood: 21:25

That's a great story. I like that.

Liz Burley: 21:27

Yeah. You know, so there was a niche for everybody. Other people would go crazy with that humming noise I can't even stand an air conditioner that you know, when the window units it could hear the buzzing of chicken Jack couldn't stand that I'd rather than hear that humming of that noise. You know, yet this man that somebody knows was soothing to him. Therefore, he excelled at what he did. I've also dealt with parents that have told me to my my own business. It doesn't matter what I do my young adult, if I want them to sit home with me, I'm going to take care of them. I don't need any adult agencies. It's a disservice to your children, would you allow your non child to do that? They don't want to be with you all the time. I don't care if they're nonverbal. They want to be with their peers. Okay, so don't think that this is so wonderful. That's not wonderful for the child. And, you know, I also what is that young adult going to do? If you're not here tomorrow, I was gonna say what happens when you're gone? You know, and I've dealt with a lot of those emergency situations, I was the phone call that people made, you know, where somebody calls into special ed or the school board. And they say, Okay, I'm dealing with my 35 year old nephew, and everybody around him has passed away. And he's never had any services. So then you try to look at, Well, where are we going to find documents to prove he had a disability prior to age 22, where we're going to get them on a waiting list, who has any files on the shown person where to go to a doctor. Now I've dealt with families like that, where things have happened. And they've kept this young adult at home was now 35 years old. So he's not that young. But he was wheelchair bound, somebody had to lift them in and out of the tub and everything else and do these things. And it became a hardship. And families like to think that siblings or other family members are going to step in and care for your child. And that's not always the way we'd like to think somebody's going to step in, we want to think brothers or sisters might take them in. And they may tell you that why you're here. But the minute you know, you're gone, it's not going to happen. When I've dealt with that, and while I was with a girlfriend, Ms. She was at home became very involved was was bed bound on the parents took care of him and then both parents died within a year of each other Minister parents died, the siblings put her in a nursing home. It happens all the time. And it's our responsibility as a parent. Our responsibility to make sure that we have plans what's going to happen when we're gone. Parents Well, he may not live that long. I you know, he'll he'll pass before I do. Well, there's no guarantee. You know, none of us to promise tomorrow. So what are you going to do in the meantime? How are you going to plan for this young adult and making sure plans are in place for them? As I said, we think we're the end all be all and our kids want to be with us. 24/7 But there's not too many of us want to be with our parents 24/7 I are young adults with disabilities at the same they have feelings because they can't vocalize it doesn't mean that they don't know what's going on. I always tell parents to Don't Be careful what you're saying around your child. Just because they can't speak or you think that they did not understand doesn't mean that They don't understand what's going on behind their eyes. You don't know how much they're understanding, they're doing different things. It doesn't mean that we're not understanding the world around them, or hear what you're saying, or the tone of your voice. It's important for parents to stop putting together a portfolio, what is my child's schedule, like, even if you have somebody come in to do respite care some time, because if a parent doesn't take care of themselves as a caregiver, they're not going to be able to take care of their child, and you need to let your child be with somebody else. Sometime, even if you start out with somebody coming in while you're home to getting to know your child, because there's always going to be an emergency. And there's always going to be something that needs to be done. So if you have a portfolio that has their medical information, their medicine, their routine, when do they eat? What is this daily schedule? Like? You know, what makes them happy? What do they like to do? How do you know if they're sad? How do you know if they're in pain? You know, is the cry different? Sometimes as mothers, we can distinguish the cries of our children, you know, and you can say, oh, that's, that's a hungry cry. You know, that's what cry, you know, that's a pain cry. So it's about understanding, getting other people to understand. It doesn't do anybody any good to hold on to information. And I've always done this as a professional in my profession with training of the teachers, it doesn't do me any good to hold on to information. I know. It's only that's only gonna help me. But there's so many other people out there that you have to spread the information around to everybody. But he needs to be aware, it's not one person's job to do just one thing. You know, so everybody needs to know the difference between the high school, the college, the transition with this, these agencies, the application process, the timelines, as many people as possible need to know that, you know, just be a transition coordinator. School is the only person that holds on to that information. Every teacher dealing with that child should understand that information. But parents, especially as an adult, if they're going in, you can say, their routine, this is what they like. And if it's in, if it's in a portfolio, notebook, whatever you want. Somebody else can get to know my child. Because as I've said, none of us have promised tomorrow. Anything could happen.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:32

I think that that's a good place to, to bring this conversation to an end.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:38

You have a lot of good advice. Liz, I'm used to hearing all that.

Liz Burley: 27:42

I because I'm old.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:45

You've seen a lot of transition for sure.

Liz Burley: 27:49

Yeah, but over the years you've seen the changes, over the years.

Patrick Cadigan: 27:53

Well, we can't thank you enough for taking your time to come out and talk with us. And we really do appreciate it.

Meghan Smallwood: 27:59

Yes, thank you very much. You brought up so many important things that I want parents to hear over and over again, because I think it'll really, it needs to resonate with them. That was wonderful.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:18

That was that was...

Meghan Smallwood: 28:21

So chock full of information.

Patrick Cadigan: 28:23

Yeah, yeah. It was a good conversation. I

Meghan Smallwood: 28:25

Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully you really enjoyed it. all did, too. So before we let you go, we wanted to share out our Well That's Helpful segment with a new resource. And this week, we're highlighting Disability Rights Maryland, which many of you may have heard of. Disability rights. Maryland or DRM is a nonprofit organization, which is formally known as Maryland Disability Law Center. The Disability Rights Maryland is federally mandated, and it advances the civil rights of people with disabilities, their providers providing free legal services to Marylanders of any age with all types of disabilities, including developmental, intellectual, psychiatric, physical, sensory learning, traumatic brain injury, anyone who lives in a facility in the community, or who are homeless, they assist with an advocacy for a number of areas and just to name a few. They will help with education, any nursing facilities, if you have an issue with that assistive technology, civil rights and voting rights, Medicaid issues, advocacy for Social Security beneficiaries, which I know many families have access them for that support and public policy. They are huge advocate for public policy. And I've known some of the things that they've fought for over the last couple of years and they're just fantastic. Any Maryland resident with a disability and a legal issue within their scope of Advocacy Service Plan, which is further outlined on their website, in contact the intake office to see if they're able to assist them? You can find out more information about the process along with details about their programs and services at www.disabilityrightsmd.org. And I just want to add that they've been a wonderful resource for our county in particular, in the past by providing information to workshops for our families on guardianship and the alternatives to guardianship, which I know many of our families have accessed and really appreciated. They also provide live q&a sessions on their Facebook page throughout the school year to help parents and families understand the right to education services for children's with disabilities, so be sure to look for them there, as well. So just a quick note, we wanted to let our listeners know that as teachers were transitioned into the summer months, which has made scheduling much more challenging.

Patrick Cadigan: 30:43

Yes. So what we've decided, Meghan and I are going to take off the month in July in regards to new content. Now will have posted episodes to listen to, but they'll be very quick. We plan to return at the beginning of August, which happens to be our one year mark. We'll have both new content and a new format. So, stay tuned. So with all that being said, Follow the information from this and other conversations in our show notes. Please like follow and share out the podcast. Also check out our YouTube channel. We have videos of all our conversations, including doing some of the legwork for you by curating videos of topics that revolve around transition. So far, we have playlists that cover guardianship alternatives to guardianship ABLE accounts and there will still be more to come so be sure to subscribe there as Well. And finally, check out our website it is chock full of information around the transition process. We you can find our contact information there we have a blog, so go to www.postsecondarytransition.com and there you go. That's all she wrote. That is all she wrote. All right, Miss Megan, we'll we are done. And we can I think we can call this one finished.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:03

Awesome. Thanks, everybody.

Patrick Cadigan: 32:05

Thank you everyone. Bye bye.

Meghan Smallwood: 32:06

Bye.