Patrick Cadigan: 0:24

Hello, everyone, we are back for Episode Three for post-secondary transition. My name is Patrick Cadigan. I'm one of the hosts. I'm a teacher in the Howard County Public School System in Maryland, and who is my co-host?

Meghan Smallwood: 0:39

I'm Meghan Smallwood, and I'm one of the Transition Specialists in Howard County public school systems.

Patrick Cadigan: 0:44

So Meghan has put together a handy dandy website called www.postsecondarytransition.com; that website is for families. So this podcast is essentially intended to be an offshoot of that, right? So as we go along, we'll hit more specific topics, eventually, we're hoping to introduce families and to interview them and find out what the transition experience is like for them. And hopefully, they'll be able to pass on nuggets of information that can help out other families. Ideally, we'll be able to talk to some service providers, maybe maybe some other teachers, what do you think? Yeah, that would be the goal. That would be nice, if they actually want to talk to us. So we'll, we'll see how it goes. Now, the format for this podcast, as we've discussed, we're thinking probably about 15 minutes, and we're going to try to post episodes every two weeks, we're definitely not going to go on for more than 30 minutes. But needless to say, when you're talking about Post-Secondary Transition, there's a lot of information out there,

Meghan Smallwood: 2:04

Right? I think the website has so many resources there, but we know how overwhelming that can be. And when you're not, you know, working and living in it every day as we are with all the acronyms and everything. It might help to have somebody to talk a little bit about it and explain it and answer any of those burning specific questions you might have. So that's why we're here.

Patrick Cadigan: 2:28

And along those lines, so why don't we start off as we always start off, Meghan, what is what does Post Secondary Transition mean?

Meghan Smallwood: 2:38

So as I've said, you know, there's a lot of transitions, right, as you're moving through the school years with your child, and the Post Secondary Transition is preparing for the future. Typically, age 14, the conversation begins till 21. And, you know, focusing on what your goal is for after 21, after school, and what are they going to do? And how are you going to get them to that point, along with the other milestones you might be hitting before 21, you know, like at 18, when they are seen as a legal adult, and you have to consider other things that need to be put in place, which we'll talk a little bit more about, but just preparing for the future, while you have those resources at your disposal from the school system. And people that know your child, and can be there to answer those questions for you.

Patrick Cadigan: 3:35

Meghan, one of the questions that I have always been thinking about okay, so you are a high school transition coordinator. I'm a middle school teacher. So what does, where does transition start it for like for high school?

Meghan Smallwood: 3:57

That's a tricky one. Because you're right, it technically begins in middle school. I mean, most lot of them are turning 14 in that eighth grade year. So I know we've had a lot of conversations. And I know our transition team leader has, you know, met with the middle school teams and discussed Okay, transition pages are coming on the IEP, here's what you need to do at this age. But again, that that middle school group, teachers wise, they're not living it day in day out like we are. So they're just trying to get through it. And to be honest, a lot of the parents I think, in that eighth grade year are not thinking about, Oh, when my child turns 21 Because you know, the eggs a year at the bottom says it's eight years away seven years away. They're thinking about high school in that transition. So I feel like it's an area that gets overlooked a lot, you know, in those middle school years. And then you know, when they come up to high school, I know a lot of times As a freshman are ninth, you know that ninth grade year, parents still aren't ready to talk about it with me? I mean, there are a lot that, no, okay, it's common I need to plan but there's many that have other priorities first. And that's understandable. It's, you know, a huge transition coming from middle to high school. But my job, I think, is to try and get them to at least hear what the timeline is going to look at and why it's important to consider it sooner than later. And just get the conversation started.

Patrick Cadigan: 5:32

Well, I'll tell you from the middle schools, teachers perspective, where we start out with kind of like what you were saying, so the student turns 14, and that's when the discussion from the middle school perspective, that perspective starts, right. So we start with the career preference, and interest interview, right? Yeah, yeah. And that, basically, is just sitting down with a student, which I always love to do, because it, it facilitates a discussion. And I get to learn a little bit more about the student and what they're interested in. So that's something that I've always been interested in, but we start with the interests. And then we go, like, in areas of interest, right? Like, are you interested in arts and entertainment, sports, business education, like the whole list? And you're gonna really start to kind of have that discussion about well, where exactly do you see yourself?

Meghan Smallwood: 6:45

Right.

Patrick Cadigan: 6:45

So and I know that it's, it can be a challenge, in the sense that in middle school, I mean, are the kids really thinking about, you know, what am I doing? You know...

Meghan Smallwood: 6:59

Yeah.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:00

10 - 15 years from now,

Meghan Smallwood: 7:02

Right.

Patrick Cadigan: 7:03

And then...

Meghan Smallwood: 7:04

But it's great to get that conversation started with them so that when they come up to high school, it's not completely taking them by surprise, you know, a lot of times when I get those IEPs, and I really appreciate the information that's put on there by the middle school teacher, who knew the student well, and has written down, you know, so and so is interested in culinary arts. It's a great conversation starter for me. Because I can go back and say, Oh, well, Mr. Cadigan, met with you last year, you remember doing that and talking about what you might want to do. For a career? You mentioned culinary arts, and a lot of times, kind of jogs your memory? Oh, yeah, we did talk about that, you know, and but here's something else I've discovered I'm interested in. And yeah, like you mentioned, we do, I'll do a transition interview with them each year, and give them different interest inventories. And it's always an I tell the students this by senior year, it's always fun to see the development from freshman to senior years, because sometimes you have those students who come in knowing exactly what they want. They're very driven. They're going to take these classes at the ARL, the Applied Research Lab, where they have the career cluster academies. And, you know, that's great, but then there's others who every year it's like, I think, this year, I want to do this, and then the following. They're like, Nope, I don't want to do that. I want to focus on this area. And I'll go back, and I'll show them, you know, when we met as a freshman, this is what you said you were interested in. And now look what you said, like, it's just that process of learning themselves over the years and discovering what they really like just, you know, based off of experiences and interests. And here's where their at.

Patrick Cadigan: 8:42

One of the other things that we, as far as the interest preference is concerned, because of course, we know that, you know, we've worked with families where we have nonverbal students, right.

Meghan Smallwood: 8:55

Mm hmm.

Patrick Cadigan: 8:55

And so there is an in interest inventory that can be done that focuses around visual representations of jobs. Yes, and that is another good place to start. And I've had to add it with my background in working with students in what is called the ALS track or the academic life skills track. These are students who will not receive a high school diploma, but they will receive a certificate. And in some cases, those visual inventories are also very helpful. Because if the student cannot articulate well, this is something that I'm interested in visually, they can respond to it. And so that's another tool that we have in our belt.

Meghan Smallwood: 9:42

Yeah, you bring up a great point. You know, the, the students I was referring to before where the diploma track but certificate track I mean, they also do the transition into every year, and it's very different. And I've had parents ask, you know, well, my students nonverbal or my student has limited mobility So how can you determine, you know, what their interests are? And I'll tell them, you know, yeah, we do the pictorial interest inventory, I've created a couple of different versions, so that you know, they have different careers presented to them. But a lot of times to with the our group who may be receiving the certificate track, the firsthand experience of allowing them the opportunity to practice these career skills or job exploration, in some of our work programs, or in building experiences really is telling of what they like and don't like. And a lot of times, I'll refer to that as part of the transition interview, because I see, you know, the student loves shredding, that's a job that he prefers and can do fairly independently. He hates cleaning, you know, so we're not going to try and help him find a position in the community doing that. So I think sharing that with parents has helped, too, because it makes them realize, at home, we could be piggybacking on these experiences, and, you know, seeing ourselves what they like and don't like, with jobs at home.

Patrick Cadigan: 11:10

What, what do you think, is the biggest challenge for families when it comes to transitions?

Meghan Smallwood: 11:19

Well, there's a lot. Um, you know, I always tried to, I mean, I experienced the transition with my sister, and I saw firsthand, as I've mentioned, in the first podcast, my mom, you know, fighting for an advocating for some things. And to this day, you know, she's 42. Now, there's still things that they they work through. And it can be, I think, I think the hardest thing is having to work with agencies that may be state or, you know, government funded, who don't have that empathy, or just work like the school system does. So having to work with these different organizations who are not user friendly, quick to respond. You know, just getting them the answers that they need, or making it easy for them is one of the most difficult things to witness and to help families with I mean, I'll be honest, you know, DDA or Developmental Disabilities Administration can be tricky with communication at times and getting SSI one of those milestones that we'll talk about at 18. It can be a tricky process.

Patrick Cadigan: 12:39

And when so when you say SSI, what is that?

Meghan Smallwood: 12:42

Social security. So when the child young adult turns 18, they're entitled to Social Security benefits monthly, you know, because they're seen as an adult. And they're just looked at their assets, as opposed to the families. So you work with SSA, Social Security Administration, which, you know, you have the general phone number to contact, you make an appointment, but there's no person other than that, you know, if you have questions or issues along the way that really will help you through it. So I know there's been a lot of difficulties with families do that. And it's frustrating. And I think those experiences prior to turning 21 kind of put that thought in their head, well, what's it going to be like, after they leave the school system? This is this is my future, you know? So if I can help them through that, and help make it as easy as possible, that's, that's part of my goal.

Patrick Cadigan: 13:39

Where do you encourage families to start? And again, this is from the perspective of high school like, what's like that beginning step? What's that beginning phase?

Meghan Smallwood: 13:50

I think just at age 14, you know, in middle school, especially just starting a file, if the only thing you do is to get a binder, label it you know, transition for Johnny. And then you have a place where all this paperwork that's going to come through or the IEP, the last IEP, you have the most copy of the recent IEP, the most common most recent copies of assessments, I think just having that file at home is a great start. You know, because you're going to have things to add every year, I'm going to be sending my parents stuff, I know it can be overwhelming and get lost in the mix. So just putting it all in one place. And then I know it's it's funny to say, you know, when you have some free time, but you know, when you do have a minute just to go through and kind of look through it and organize it, you know, the best you can or just to refresh your memory on what some of these terms are. I think that's the best thing you can do.

Patrick Cadigan: 14:51

One of the other resources that you had put out there is go to going to www.postsecondarytransition.com. And at the top of the webpage going to the Start Here. And those pages are designed and intended for families, specifically in high school, where when you click on that link, it's asking you the question, Where are you, I have a freshman, I have a sophomore, I have a junior. So there's a whole list of things in there. That can, that can be a good jumping off point for families. So hopefully, that'll be a resource that can be used.

Meghan Smallwood: 15:36

And I think, you know, I know talk a lot about certificate students, but those on the diploma track, the biggest thing I think, for those students, especially in middle school, is to start recognizing that they do have an IEP, because it always surprises me when I come across students by junior senior year, even who are like, What do you mean? Well, what's an IEP, and you know, have to go back and explain well, you know, those things that you get from the teachers, you know, copies of notes extra time, that's listed on your IEP, and it's a tough conversation at that age to have because you're preparing them for, you know, it'd be college, trade, school, whatever may be coming up, and you want them to be as prepared as possible, and recognize that they've had some supports, and that's okay, you know, it's really helped them along the way. So I think, you know, starting in middle school, and going through that, and practicing, also that self advocacy piece of making sure they are getting their accommodations, recognizing that the teacher may be already giving them the copies of notes, but not every teacher may just hand it to them, you know, they might have to ask for it. And that kind of aligns with after high school, if they go to college, you know, they're going to have to go up to the professor, advocate for those those accommodations and support. So...

Patrick Cadigan: 16:54

And one of the things, and I know that it might seem like a foregone conclusion, or, you know, fairly obvious, however, where, who do families go to for help for transition? How do you what does that look like?

Meghan Smallwood: 17:10

So within the school system, at least in our county, every high school has an, and every special center, has a transition specialist assigned to the school outside of Howard County, and it's designed differently, you know, there might be one for a group of high schools, but they're the resource, you know, to help with any of the transition questions you may have. If you're not sure who they are, you can always reach out to the case manager or the team leader at your school, who can put you in contact with them. But you should hear from them at the beginning of the year with the introduction letter. And usually parent questionnaire goes home just to get some input. And it'll ask you if you want to have a one on one meeting with your transition specialist. I love those meetings, because it really gives us the chance to talk more individually about you know, their concerns or questions. But, you know, I'm always here and I always make sure to send a note to the parent after an IEP meeting, you know, I'm happy to meet individually if you'd like. And Google Meets to have been very helpful with that. You know, everyone's scheduled just being able to do it virtually, or phone call whatever may work for the parent. So...

Patrick Cadigan: 18:22

Brilliant. All right. Guess what?

Meghan Smallwood: 18:26

Are we done with three?

Patrick Cadigan: 18:27

I think we're done with episode three.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:29

Look at that. Flying through.

Patrick Cadigan: 18:30

All right. We definitely have, we still have a lot to talk about.

Meghan Smallwood: 18:35

Oh, I have a lot to talk about.

Patrick Cadigan: 18:36

Yeah. So we'll, we'll keep going. And we'll keep building those in. But please, if you liked the podcast, send us a note. We're we're hungry for feedback. Let us know what you think the topics that you want discussed. And again, we're hoping to have families come on and you know, kind of interview them and talk about the experiences that they've had. Also another way to help, please tell families about us. You know, and help spread the word and we'll see if we can get out there and start talking to some more people and some more topics.

Meghan Smallwood: 19:14

Yeah, we'd love to talk about any topic that you may have questions about or just want to hear us suggest things or talk it through with you. You know, we're we're here to help so don't be afraid to reach out.

Patrick Cadigan: 19:26

Brilliant. All right, we're all done. We'll talk to you guys later.

Meghan Smallwood: 19:31

See ya.